Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
geejay50

Scarce Coin Watch

Recommended Posts

geejay50

Hi collectors,

 

Have you seen this one ever ?

 

An 1894 Two Rupie German East Africa Mintage 18,000 graded XF40 PCGS

 

There is one other one, an MS61 at NGC graded so far and that was a few years ago.

 

It has been with me for a while and had it graded recently

 

It is a coin that is extensively forged along with its more common cousin the 1893 Two Rupie which has about double the mintage, 17 coins graded at NGC and 12 at PCGS.

 

I propose we have a scarce coin watch slot on Bob forum that reports on scarce coins that have appeared recently.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
southernaurora

Lovely coin. I currently have one at pcgs and hope to have the grade in 2 to 3 weeks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

It is not exactly the same type of coin, but I would rate that 1926 Union 2/ NGC MS-64 that just sold on Heritage in the same category in any better grade. I have seen a decent number of them in lower (and uncollectibel grades by my standards) but there are almost none like this one. If a poll of Union collectors were taken, I believe that most would vastly prefer its 1925 counterpart when in actuality, there is no substantial difference in rarity between the two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Southernaurora,

I will watch the PCGS pop report for the change - hope your coin makes it. I have had a few fakes though even when they weigh the same and look genuine. Even sending one back that looked authentic did not get it through grading at the other company. The fake industry is quite good at times.

By the way, PCGS has been giving excellent service of late in my experience.

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Southern Rhodesia 1938 halfpenny ,

Some scarce coins dont get much attention. These halfpennies were minted in the UK for the then Southern Rhodesia from 1934 and with the missing years of 1935,1937 had mintages of only 240 000 meaning there are only coins from 1934,1936 and 1938 for the early Copper Nickel type.

Southern Rhodesia remains a Cinderela in Numismatic terms although there seems to be growing international interest from countries like China.

I had the above coin for a while and it would not grade because of a corrosion spot so eventually sent it to NCS then for grading at NGC (Sister Companies). It was a big improvement and not only was the corrosion removed , but the whole coin seemed to have undergone a facelift and duly received MS64.

It is currently the only coin graded at NGC with another coin graded at PCGS (MS64).

Some day soon, the market will wake up and realise how underrated this country's coins are. The high quality coins are already receiving attention - watch the 1937 Halfcrown MS65 currently on Heritage - the bid is over $200.

Geejay

58f5a721f3308_1938SRhoHalfpenamp11.jpg.7578be067194ac04e5ae26424fde411b.jpg

58f5a722289da_1938SRhoHalfpenamp11.jpg.91ced34da820fb1da6f42d439144af20.jpg

58f5a7222d352_1938SRhoHalfpenamp11.jpg.f1556c2123cb2e90ac0a5cb30a814e2d.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

I agree with you that Southern Rhodesia coins are likely scarcer than most believe. But do you know whether they are any scarcer than comporable South Africa coins?

 

Regardless, the disadvantage they have from a financial standpoint is where they are from. In my opinion, the only collector demand for them will be from Commenwealth collectors and to a more limited degree, some other collectors based in South Africa. The prospects for a domestic collector base I would essentially rate at zero.

 

Also, some of the coins which are sold the most often not only are not cheap, I consider them over priced. Specifically, I am referring to the 1932 and 1937 proof sets. The 1932 set has a mintage of 492 and I believe sells for at least $500 USD and maybe more. The 1937 set has a mintage of 40 and sells for several thousand USD. Given the limited collector demand, these prices are absolutely not cheap. And the 1932 set, it is not even scarce.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Thanks for your comments Ernesto,

 

The collectors of ex countries like Southern Rhodesia and German East Africa are often not from those countries and they collect for other reasons that are varied. I sold off some lower grade coins (I keep graded coins) from both those countries and was surprised who the buyers were and from what countries. From memory, California, Vladivostok, St Petersberg, China (mainland), Austria and United Kingdom. I expected a lot of German interest for GEA but did not get it. Perhaps as a nation they are not very proud of having had colonies around the world although they were a minor colonizer compared to the British and French.That is my personal opinion right or wrong?

 

The Southern Rhodesian 1932 proof Set has a mintage of 496 , slightly less than the 1950 Proof Set of South Africa (500) which sells for around $1500.

 

Last night the Southern Rhodesian 1932 proof set sold for $1667 inclusive of Buyers Premium and it had well over 8 bids. I bought my 1932 proof set graded from China in 2009 for $1000 . How did it get there?

 

 

Regards

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

How did both of those sets get to these prices? By collectors or "investors" fooling themselves into thinking that either mintage is "rare" when for a proof, it is not rare or even scarce. That is how.

 

Especially for the 1932 set, anyone who pays the price you quoted is getting a very poor value. Even the $1000 you paid I think is too much and if I owned it, I would get rid of it if financial considerations were the primary reason I bought it. The set only has five coins and to put it bluntly, it is from what I would describe as an obscure or by the definition of some, an extinct country which limits the future demand in most instances.

 

What people need to remember is that not all mintages are equal. Yes, that is correct. A mintage of 496 from Southern Rhodesia is not equal to the same mintage from South Africa, much less from the United States. The "rarity" is the same but the demand is not which is why they should not generally sell for the same price or anywhere near it.

 

I'm not sure what grade your set is in or these others, but there are any number of late 19th century proof coins from the United States with about the same mintages or slightly more for which the individual coins only sell for slightly more. (That is, a proof Barber quarter or half dollar in a grade like PR-63 selling for maybe $600.) The next best explanation for why the 1932 set sells for its current price (aside from what I just described) is that it is either the only Southern Rhodesia KGV proof set or the only one available. I do not recall ever seeing any other proofs from 1933-1936, even from the Remick collection and my Krause catalog does not list them either.

 

With the 1950 South Africa proof set, if someone is paying $1500 for it, I would say that a TOP set would be somewhat worth it, but not one that is average. I have the three bronze in PR-64 to PR-66 RD and the 6D and 1/ in PR-66, all NGC. If the larger coins were in the same grades and looked like those I own (all are very sharp), then I would say $1500 or maybe even up to $2000 is a fair price, though likely more than I would pay. But any others, absolutely not.

 

Instead, I see the 1950 proof 2/ and 2/6 selling for far more than I think they are worth. I have not seen them for sale lately (since I do not check BoB often), but when I did, I would see them for sale in the $300 range even when they looked average. The best explanation for that price is, once again, what I have described before. Collectors are buying them as a substitute for the business strikes because those are hard to find, though not as rare in my opinion as many others seem to think. I have owned both of them in MS-64 in the past and have seen both of them for sale on multiple occassions. I could have bought them as duplicates but declined to do so.

 

There are also some other Southern Rhodesia dates which are viewed as "scarce" or "rare", but I do not think they are really rare either. Most likely, some others are actually scarcer but most just do not know it. By this, I am referring to the 1946 and 1954 2/. I have seen both of these in 'high" grade (AU to MS) many times. If these are actually the scarcest business strikes, they are apparently far more available than the scarcest Union coinage and because of the demand, should absolutely sell for much less.

 

In the past, I myself considered buying these coins or other British Commonwealth, but I declined to do so because I know less about them than SA coins and I am not sufficiently interested in buying them as collectibles. If I were to buy any of these coins, I would probably buy one like that 1956 proof cent that sold on Heritage a few years ago. But I'm not convinced that these "off date" proofs are good "investments" at all. The same applies to those from the UK.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

 

We both seem pesimistic about countries like Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) and German East Africa (now Tanzania) but I have ongoing contact with Zim for family and other reasons and it is safe to say that people that stay there and make a living there have a resilience that is surprising. Their level of education remains high and their interest in their own history is high too. I spoke to a Black Zimbabwe Professional about the Hut Tax Tokens and he is really keen to find these back home . The resource based economy of those countires will rebound quickly despite the turmoil. Europe and Japan turned things around within a decade after the second world war. We cannot see present day coin prices in a vacuum without looking at the way things are going.

 

My thoughts

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

1950 Union 2/- and 2/6 /- coins

 

With the 1950 South Africa proof set, if someone is paying $1500 for it, I would say that a TOP set would be somewhat worth it, but not one that is average. I have the three bronze in PR-64 to PR-66 RD and the 6D and 1/ in PR-66, all NGC. If the larger coins were in the same grades and looked like those I own (all are very sharp), then I would say $1500 or maybe even up to $2000 is a fair price, though likely more than I would pay. .

 

If my records are correct, the last 1950 ungraded Union proof set sold for just over US$1000 on BoB ( R6948.00)

 

Instead, I see the 1950 proof 2/ and 2/6 selling for far more than I think they are worth. I have not seen them for sale lately (since I do not check BoB often), but when I did, I would see them for sale in the $300 range even when they looked average. The best explanation for that price is, once again, what I have described before. Collectors are buying them as a substitute for the business strikes because those are hard to find, though not as rare in my opinion as many others seem to think. I have owned both of them in MS-64 in the past and have seen both of them for sale on multiple occassions. I could have bought them as duplicates but declined to do so.

 

The 1950 2/- (graded in MS) is scarce in terms of it being offered - I have no record of one selling over the past 18 months on BoB, but a PF- 65 sold for R1,560.00.

 

The 1950 2/6- in proof (graded) sold for R2,905.00 (PF65) and R2800 (PF66). An ungraded almost unc sold for R2343.00. Only one graded MS sold during the period that I have kept records and that was a MS63 for R6500.00.

 

So both these coins in MS are scarce, but I rate the 2/- as a really scarce, even rare coin in top MS grade.

 

Pierre

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Ernesto and Pierre,

 

I remember now why I thought the 1932 Southern Rhodesian Proof set to be a good buy. Looking at Mintage of 496 and number graded by NGC & PCGS, I realised then in 2009 that there were only 18 possible complete sets graded, doing the same now, there are now a maximum of 20 graded sets - another 2 graded in the past two years. I realised that mintage and coin survival are not the same given the state of flux of Zimbabwe compared to South Africa.

 

A comparison with the SA 1950 Proof Set, there are a maximum of 45 sets graded (NGC & PCGS) with the humble 6d being the scarcest coin followed closely by the coppers and 3d. The 2/- has a grading of 53 and the 2/6 one of 54. Bigger coins tend to fetch higher prices regardless of grading figures though.

 

I noticed that unlike South African coins graded where NGC gets about 90% of our coins, these Southern Rhodesian Proofs have a more or less even distribution between NGC & PCGS. Perhaps those sending are not South African and possibly from the USA.

 

I havent seen many graded Southern Rhodesian 1932 Proof Sets for sale either (maybe three - mine included) compared to South African 1950 Proof Sets for whatever reason we can only speculate.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

Geejay,

 

It is not that I do not think Southern Rhodesia is worth owning as a collectible, but I'm not convinced that they are good financial buys at any of the prices you quoted or those I checked on Heritage yesterday in writing that post. And since everyone has a finite budget to allocate and for most it's fairly limited, I prefer to spend mine on other coins that I like more and that I think are better buys.

 

To me, there is a big difference between South Africa and other obscure countries, whether former Commonwealth or otherwise. But this is based upon my GENERAL assumptions and I could be entirely wrong about this case entirely since I do not follow it that closely.

 

First on the pop reports, I do not believe that what we see in the NGC and PCGS census is reflective of what is available. Not by a longshot. I do not believe it is even representative for most South Africa Union coins but much less for other countries. If you look at both census, South Africa has MORE graded coins than any other country outside the United States. It's something I have pointed out many many times. The reason for this is because SA collectors prefer graded coins while most others do not. So unless there is another reason to believe that Southern Rhodesia is accurately reflected in the census, I would assume that there is a lot more available.

 

Second, unless you know otherwise, I would not assume that most of the 1932 proof sets (or any others) are in Zimbabwe now or have been for decades. I would assume that most that were still left in that country would have been sent out of the country in the 1980's.

 

To give you a comparison, I also collect Bolivia Republic decimals. There are very few collectors of these coins (I have no idea how many) and the only reason I collect them is becauase my father's family is from there and it is part of my past. But if you try to find them in better grades (and some in any grade), they just are not available very often. The only large collection I have ever seen was the Whittier which sold in the June 2, 2006 Heritage auction. Aside from that, it is a handful or one here and there.

 

How does this relate to Southern Rhodesia? It is probably similar in the sense that most of the coins are owned by foreign collectors because there is a limited (in Bolivia, essentially non-existent) numismatic community and most locals do not have the financial capacity to buy them anyway, despite the fact that relatively speaking, they are cheap or dirt cheap versus comporably scarce coinage or even many that are far more common. In Bolivia, it is not uncommon for people to make say, $400 a month, even with "good" jobs. So spending say, $150 to $200 for a crown sized Boliviano ("Toming") in MS graded MS-63 (or so) is simply not a realistic option for them. In Zimbabwe, its possible that a very few locals (my opinion is the remaining minority population) MIGHT still collect them, but I doubt that more than VERY few do from the majority groups. In this regard, I do not see any difference between the collecting habits there and those in South Africa on a relative basis (an assumption I admit).

 

Most Bolivian coins that I collect (and most period) that are worth owning by "serious" collectors are almost certainly owned by collectors in the United States and Europe. For Southern Rhodesia, they are likely owned by collectors in South Africa, the UK, Australia and maybe the United States.

 

Third, partly because of this reason, I doubt that there is a "critical mass" of likely prospective collectors that are "clamoring" to buy these coins either as collectibles or "investments". And if my assumptions are correct, it will be up to foreigners and expats to do so. I would not count on that in selecting them as "investments" anymore than I would for SA Union or ZAR because most collectors prefer the coins of their home country or secondly, country of origin, regardless of what coins we are talking about. If so, then the question becomes how many expats are there who actually still want these coins and how much more are they willing to pay for them?

 

Even though I have commented many times that I consider many South African coins either fully priced or relatively overpriced at current or recent levels, the one thing I CANNOT say is that the long term prospects between potential collectors and potential demand is not favorable. It is. I just think there will be better entry points (in some instances, much better) in the future before prices rise a lot more from here particularly since prices have risen considerably for a long time, there have been no significant setbacks during this time and prices are not particularly cheap versus other alternatives in many instances. But South Africa has a favorable "investment" infrastructure and demographics versus the supply which most other countries do not.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

I appreciate your input and comparison with Bolivia , another third world country. The situation in Zimbabwe is in many respects unique. We have a country here where there has been mass disturbance of what was a profitable viable economic infrastructure due to political factors. This has resulted in initial hyperinflation followed by collapse of the indigenous currency with a replacement of it by foreign. There is not another example at the moment of such a process in the modern world.

I aggree with you that the buyers and holders of the old Rhodesian coins are probably outside the country but there are a lot of non Zimbabweans (me included) who have watched this incredibly tragic change and have started collecting these coins out of pure sentimental interest silly as it may sound.After all, it is market sentiment that moves buyers to buy coins as trivial as they are but so are Diamonds.

Regards Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hello Collectors,

 

The Southern Rhodesian 1946 Two Shilling is a coin where the mintage was high at 700,000 but the coins were mostly withdrawn because of the sudden increase in the price of Silver post war. It had 0.925 Silver and was relaced in 1947 by Copper Nickel.

 

NGC pop report lists 9 1946 2/- coins graded

 

XF45(1),AU55(1),58(2),MS62(1),63(2),64(2)

 

PCGS: 3 coins graded

MS62(2),65(1)

 

The exact number of coins released is unknown and this has given the coin a scarcity factor that some may say is not entirely warranted. It is undoubtedly a scarce coin and has the highest catalogue value of any Southern Rhodesian coin.With that in catalogue print, it may be that the coin has been graded more than other coins from that country and perhaps the rest of the coins from other years will still be graded.

 

The catalogues were written before grading became popular and as the existing world pool of numismatic coins gets graded, one can see that certain other years are actually scarcer in terms of survivors - like 1939 2/- or unexpectedly 1935 2/- (1 only graded AU55 - recently by me) . The situation is steadily maturing and we will get a better picture in the next two or so years.

 

Overall the Southern Rhodesian Two Shilling in Silver is scarce in graded form and it may have to do with the attractiveness of the reverse. Certainly graded Mint State specimens are very few of any date - I have only this one in my collection as shown and it received a very gratifying face lift prior to NGC grading thanks to NCS.

 

Perhaps the local people in Zimbabwe as in parts of South Africa hoarded these coins. There was a Chief Mtubatuba from Zululand (after whom the town was named) who in 1939 paid for a Pontiac Sedan with thousands of Two Shilling Coins stored in goat skin bags (JC van der Walt - Zululand True Stories 1780 - 1976). It is told that the Chief was so impressed with the car's windscreen wipers that he drove with them on even during sunny days!!! Maybe goat skin bags are not the best for silver coin preservation. If you are wondering where all the 1923,25,26,31 and 38 SA Two Shillings went ????

 

Geejay

58f5a72242d6e_1946SRhoTwoShiamp108.jpg.3e087426066615381fb5b2c16ccaecb4.jpg

58f5a72247b93_1946SRhoTwoShiamp108.jpg.3610d7c753cf24d8379a19ec9f72497e.jpg

58f5a7224c67a_1946SRhoTwoShiamp108.jpg.9a419a8c1c6b1ffdae585eba44f621df.jpg

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pierre_Henri

The Southern Rhodesian 1946 Two Shilling is a coin where the mintage was high at 700,000 but the coins were mostly withdrawn because of the sudden increase in the price of Silver post war. It had 0.925 Silver and was relaced in 1947 by Copper Nickel.

Geejay

 

Hi Georg

 

While reading your interesting post, I had "A History of the Coins of Southern Rhodesia, the Federation and Rhodesia" (Published by Julian Papenfus in the seventies) lying in front of me.

 

The silver coins of Southern Rhodesia were minted in sterling (0.925) up to 1943, and then from 1944 to 1946, in 50% silver.

 

On the "Chief and the goat skin" story, and referring back to the scarcity of the 1950 higher denomination silver: A collector friend of mine here in the Cape, who started collecting as a 24 year old after decimalization in 1961, told me the following interesting story: In the early sixties, a bag of brilliant uncirculated 2/6 /- of 1950 was discovered in a bank vault in the Eastern Cape - he think it was in Umtata or somewhere near there.

 

A collector bought (actually exchanged it for rands/cents from the bank) but there the story ends: no one knows what happened to it in the mean while - maybe he picked out a few and had the rest melted?

 

Pierre

Edited by Pierre_Henri

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Thanks Pierre,

The Chief bought that car with sacks of Union Two Shillings in 1939 (tough year for us to find 2/- coins) from a Salesman who took the coins to the local Sugar Mill who issued him with a cheque for the sum value. Lovely silver exchanged for almost worthless paper !! If people only had our insight then??

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

The best explanation for the larger number of Southern Rhodesia 1946 2/ in the census versus other dates is its current market value. This along with collector preference are the usual and general reasons why most coins (especially non-US) have larger populations versus their peers that are either known or believed to be more common. And as all of you know, given the expense and in many instances, unreliabilility of the postal service in many countries, many collectors do not want to be bothered to have a low value coin graded anyway. The vast majority of Southern Rhodesia coins fit this profile.

 

From what I know, the 1946 and 1954 2/ are the most expensive even if actually not the scrarcest business strikes. And I can tell you that I have seen both of them more than a few times in high grades (ungraded) from the few dealers I buy from. I just have not been interested in buying either of these coins because there are others that I would rather own, I am not interested in starting another series and believe that the other coins I buy are better values anyway.

 

Now exactly what grades those coins were, I do not know because I did not actually see tham. They were described as either AU or MS and given their relatively recent dates and my experience with these dealers, I would expect that they would likely grade in the range described. It is possible that these specimens I saw are now in the census, but only those who actually bought them would know that.

 

But let us say for the sake of discussion that the 8 1946 2/ MS in the census are reflective of their relative scarcity and that there are some but not that many more. Is this coin really that scarce to warrant its current price given the few number of collectors for this series? (If you answer "yes", I can come up with any number of other series that are at least as scarce with much more going for them.) The PCGS MS-62 listed on Heritage sold for $575 last year and those I have seen raw were listed for more. The 1954 2/ NGC AU-58 on Heritage sold for $1265 in 2009. (I have seen ask prices for this coin at about $750.) I consider many (if not all) of the South Africa KGVI "key" dates better or much better values than either of those two. For $1265, you can buy just about any KGVI date in AU-58 (or even MS) for LESS. Most of the South Africa KGV in that grade also sell for much LESS.

 

What I would like know is, what exactly is so compelling about either of those coins to make them worth the same or even more as these other SA coins I just used as a basis of comparison? The only thing that I can think of is that, for the FEW collectors who want to complete a Southern Rhodesia set, they are all looking for these two. And since so few non-US collectors are looking to buy graded coins, its possible (or even likely) that about the only demand for graded specimens is coming from those in South Africa.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Collectors,

 

Thanks Pierre for your posting on the 1950 2/6.Such a pity that so many of our scarce coins have gone to the pot !!!

 

Here is a coin that is not mentioned much but the pop report speaks for itself. The 1923 Penny in Red Brown. I found one in 2007 amongst a batch of raw coins on Heritage Auctions. It looked different to the ordinary Brown (blackened) 1923 Penny and it graded Red Brown MS63. At that time there were 3 coins graded RB at NGC inclusive of my coin viz MS62(1),63(1),65(1). PCGS: Nil graded

 

That number of RB coins has not changed since, in sharp contrast to the hoard of Brown coins graded with the big change in April 2010 when there was a big increase in the MS66 BN Pennies which went up from 1 coin to 29 graded now and 379 coins overall.This type of discovery is unusual but something all coin collectors/investors have to live with.The price fetched for finest known predictably dropped from R24,415 to R3937 ($525) by August 2010. That also does not mean that the fetched price will stay low - it remains a high quality first strike coin and will attract collectors and broaden the George V market to eventually show a healthy increase in price in the longer term.

 

The Red-Brown variety has proportionately become even more scarce and sought after however. If one comes out of a collection, I expect prices similar to top ZAR Pennies.

 

There is a big difference in colour of this coin.

 

Geejay

58f5a7226daa2_1923PennyMS63RBamp.jpg.d2ffa72ecf83c4ba809bab695543e593.jpg

58f5a72272270_1923PennyMS63RBamp.jpg.5edae6c0d776e7b897a5226f3099aebd.jpg

58f5a72276bc8_1923PennyMS63RBamp.jpg.bad0931f70b01958d39b6bf81c3963e5.jpg

58f5a7227b6cd_1923PennyMS66BNamp.jpg.823243dd2bd9a76f2495c40d7388e8cb.jpg

58f5a7227fda1_1923PennyMS66BNamp.jpg.6ae4cfcf6e8d8aa2c8abb9e6aec88ee0.jpg

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Thanks Ernesto,

 

I suppose only time will tell us exactly what is really scarce and what is overvalued in a growing market like Zimbabwe (Southern Rhodesia). I havent been as lucky as you to bump into more than one or two of the issues 1946 and 1954 2/- in the AU/MS category but that is anecdotal and the view of only one.

 

Brian Hern suggests that the 1939 Two Shilling in EF is far scarcer than any other Southern Rhodesian coin and with a grading figure of 2 at NGC, he may be right.

 

The collectibility of these coins will be up to the individual collectors and their interest in that country. I dont blame you for having little interest in it.

 

Geejay

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

Geejay,

 

I am not trying to "knock" Southern Rhodesia coins. As I said, I did consider buying them but decided against it. I am just cautioning everyone here to try to have an objective perspective of what the same money can buy in other material and I believe that the South Africa coins I used as examples which have at least equal scarcity do that.

 

As far as the 1923 1D, that R24000 for the previous sole MS-66 was vastly overpriced to begin with and in my opinion, it never should have sold for that. I can see this date as a 'conditional" rarity being justified at a somewhat higher price than its current $525 because it is the easiest coin to find in high grade and many collectors will want a top KGV specimen, but I do not believe it should sell for much more than its current price in the foreseeable future.

 

On the RD or RB specimens, I have to admit I am ambivalent about them. On the one hand in certain respects I believe that color scarcity is over rated price wise and this applies to all bronze or copper and not just this date. But on the other hand, I personally like RD or RB (if it is mostly red or looks really nice) much better than BN specimens. Generally, I wuold rather have a RD one or two points lower on the grading scale than a BN (e.g., MS-63 RD versus MS-65 BN.)

 

For example, that 1892 NGC MS-64 RB PL penny I owned, I would vastly rather have had it than however many 1892 1D in BN it would take to be worth the same price. It is not a proof but its the closest that a "low budget" collector is ever likely to get to one. I also really like RD KGV because they are generally really hard to find (the 1929 and 1930 1/2D excepted).

 

On this particular coin, I saw that coin (and declined to buy it) but I do own the only 1923 proof RB farthing in the census. (There are two listed but it is the same coin. I know that for a fact because it is my coin.) My coin is probably about 50% RD on both sides. It must have been stored in an envelope (or something like it) because there is a sharp dividing line between the two colors. But I can tell you, this coin looks vastly better (to me) than any other I have seen and (to me) worth every cent of the $500 I paid for it. I would not hesitate to buy a second one for the same price or even slightly more. And yes, if I could find a fully RD proof, I would be willing to pay a substantial premium to my coin because, unlike the MS, I doubt there is a single specimen from any other date in RD.

 

Nevertheless in assessing color "rarity" and price, buyers need to keep in mind that whatever the color, the date and denomination are still what matter most. It is not valid to view the color rarity such as for this 1923 in isolation as if the BN specimens did not exist. A 1923 bronze is still a 1923 regardless of the color and this applies to both the MS and the proof version. For example, I exchanged messages with someone who claimed that the owner of the MS-65 RB 1D supposedly wanted around R60000 for it. There is absolutely no justification whatsoever for that price or anywhere near it. I mean, is that coin really worth almost as much as the 1926 NGC MS-64 2/ which sold for $12650 on Heritage last week? The answer is, of course not.

 

Also when comparing this coin to the ZAR 1D, I'm not sure what you mean. I presume it already sells for at least the same premium as the 1892 or 1898 if not more, but the only 1894 I saw for sale did not sell at a substantial premium and likely, more collectors would rather have it. (This coin sold on Heritage and I admit, it did not have a lot of visible RD.) But if by "top coins" you mean a similar premium to the 1892 RD currently fetch, I do not see that.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hi Ernesto,

Hind sight is much clearer than foresight. The 1923 MS66BN that was sold when it was still the only finest known was an exclusive coin and fetched whatever the pocket of the bidders could afford at the time - usually 7 times what a say MS63 coin would fetch. The bidders were not to know at that time that there was a hoard of that quality of coin being graded.

In hindsight and with the shift in the pop report, far too much to pay but who knew what was coming at the time?? Its a risk that every growing market lives with.

Geejay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hello Ernesto and Collectors,

 

Your example of the 1892 Penny MS64RB Prooflike is one that is of great interest indeed and thank-you for raising it. I totally agree with you that a Proof Penny carries such a price tag as to be unafforadable to the vast majority of collectors.(R450,000 according to a recent private sale)

 

For example, that 1892 NGC MS-64 RB PL penny I owned, I would vastly rather have had it than however many 1892 1D in BN it would take to be worth the same price. It is not a proof but its the closest that a "low budget" collector is ever likely to get to one. I also really like RD KGV because they are generally really hard to find (the 1929 and 1930 1/2D excepted).

 

I have had the luck to be able to add both Brown and Red Brown Prooflike Pennies in MS63 to my collection and would like to show all collectors the salient features and mention an extract from Eli Levine who deals with the differences between Business Strike and Proof 1892 ZAR Pennies.I have also had the rare opportunity to look at a genuine graded 1892 Proof Penny and would vouch for the fact that the Prooflike Penny is to all intents and purposes almost exactly the same as a Proof.

 

As I put a Prooflike Penny alongside a high grade MS64 Penny under the same Tungsten light, the biggest difference to me is really the mirror surfaces of the Proof coin. This mirror surface is really only properly apparent when the coin is viewed in the hand. The business strike however, has LUSTRE as an overriding feature . I consider sharpness of lettering to be practically the same when comparing high grade MS coins to Proofs.

 

Eli Levine on page 34 of The Coinage and Counterfeits of the ZAR gives his views as to the differences between proof and uncirculated 1892 Pennies.

He says: Obverse 1) Sharpness of lettering 11) Sharpness of rim 111)Full stop on the proof coin appears smaller than the unc. Reverse: 1) Sharpness and shape of Letters 11)The stars of the Proof coin are absolutely perfect with no waivering of the metal at the points.111) The sharpness of the edge 1V) The ribs of the wagon are more prominent V) The scrolls on the shield look more prominent.

 

'Another test although not conclusive is a mauve sheen on the proof coin.' Eli Levine (my Red Brown coin definitely has this)

 

I dont really think with the greatest respect to the valuable insight of Mr Levine that any of the above is as important as the Mirror fields in differentiating between Proof and Non Proof coins.

 

What do you think?

 

All photos have been taken under exactly the same conditions of light and no alteration has been done to alter the colour of the coins save for a "sharpening" function used on all three coins.

 

The coin on the far right is an MS64 RB Penny Obverse that has been conserved at NCS prior to being graded at NGC. The Brown Prooflike is unique on the Pop Report.

 

Geejay

58f5a722988a4_1892PennyMS63PLamp.jpg.7c375be71acd6ab97b55080758db83e5.jpg

58f5a7229cf8d_1892PennyMS63PLamp.jpg.bac916089b7091e41f734cc215620f41.jpg

58f5a722a1bbe_1892MS63BNPLPeamp110.jpg.2f9b5c26f146444748c469379e00ffd7.jpg

58f5a722a6845_1892MS63BNPLPeamp110.jpg.21749f2cab01c86bf33ca4c3c11da940.jpg

58f5a722ab24b_1892PennyMS64RBamp.jpg.d0a8b99e639a40559bd2c78dd6036352.jpg

Edited by geejay50

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
geejay50

Hello Collectors,

I would like to add the remining pics of the Red Brown Penny MS64 for the sake of completeness

Geejay

58f5a722afcf4_1892PennyMS64RBamp.jpg.6eee5ba9a4821abdd170d69c74c8d1fe.jpg

58f5a722b464f_1892PennyMS64RBamp.jpg.61b45bad93c6ffe3838e9ca8b175c776.jpg

58f5a722b918c_1892PennyMS64RBamp.jpg.13727165f2f9b677a4c0daa489f1b088.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
Hi Ernesto,

 

Hind sight is much clearer than foresight. The 1923 MS66BN that was sold when it was still the only finest known was an exclusive coin and fetched whatever the pocket of the bidders could afford at the time - usually 7 times what a say MS63 coin would fetch. The bidders were not to know at that time that there was a hoard of that quality of coin being graded.

 

In hindsight and with the shift in the pop report, far too much to pay but who knew what was coming at the time?? Its a risk that every growing market lives with.

 

Geejay

 

 

Only six or seven times? That seems rather less than what I remember. If someone was paying R4000 for an MS-63 at the time, they were paying far too much. I recall an MS-63 selling for maybe R1000 which is still only slightly more than I believe it sells for now.

 

I personally acquired a raw 1923 specimen that later graded MS-66 BN and it became either the second or third in the census. I ended up selling it for $600. Presuably I could have sold it for more but in retrospect, from a financial standpoint, it did not turn out to be such a bargain to the buyer. (I actually thought this coin would come back RB, though wih a lower grade. It has peripheral RD on the obverse and quite a bit of RD on the reverse.)

 

On the increase in population, yes it is true that no one could know WITH CERTAINTY that these other specimens would show up and especially a hoard, but I believe that any knowledgeable collector should have considered it LIKELY that another MS-66 would show up. I mean, this coin is not remotely scarce as a date or even in MS.

 

This is something I have repeatedly stated. From a financial standpoint, buying most NON-US coins under the assumption that the census represents most known specimens, whether in high grade or not, is a financial mistake. There is no reason whatsoever to assume that.this is true. This is especially true of conditional rarities which, in my opinion, do not usually deserve the premiums they have anyway. The difference in actual appearance does not justify it.

Edited by jwither

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

Though this RB PL is only "appearance" scarce and the 1892 is not remotely scarce as a date, I doubt I will ever come across another SA 1D that I will like better. The only other 1892 specimen that I have seen that compares to it is the PCGS MS-66 RD I saw at the 2007 Long Beach show and if I had arrived on Thursday or Friday, I might have been able to buy it for the pitiful $500 for which the dealer sold it. I would not be surprised if this is a $20000 coin now.

 

I have never seen an 1892 proof in person, but I have owned quite a few other MS and until you get the chance to compare both at the same time, it is hard to appreciate the difference in appearance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×