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Consumer Protection Act - how are you going to change your business?

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bitesize

also, can we state that insurance on an item is now mandatory or can we only give it as an option?

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KMartin
I don't like the idea of giving out my ID and I doubt it will be required because the buyer isn't a company who should have the right to your ID. If that was required then I won't be a seller anymore because of fraud with ID numbers.

 

if you are a registered buiseness you have to provide your buiseness details, if you a private seller an ID.

 

Maybe BOB has to introduce a system where every seller and buyer has to do something like 'ricca" there profile that the seller and buyer get each others details. maybe a way to stop a little of that fraud.

 

as for a second tell numer, that is a good idea, but the buyer is also only by the new act allowed to contact you during buiseness hours 8am to 5pm monday to friday. If he/she calls after 5pm he/she is in contempt of the act them selves.

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voldermort

"also, the buyer can rescind (cancel) the contract/sale within 5 working days, and you have to accept that and return his cash."

 

I dont see how this would work with auctions.

What about lots "sold as is"?

The buyer can buy it, test it, and then return it?

In terms of traditional auction concepts this would not make sense.

 

the consumer has a right to what's called a "cooling off period". that means that he has 5 business days to cancel the contract/sale - see s . if the buyer has opened the item/package, then you as the seller can charge him a "reasonable amount" (i know this is vague, but what exactly constitutes a reasonable amount is something that ordinarily only gets answered in a court of law. not encouraging, but it is what it is) for the use of the goods during this period that they were in his possession, unless the goods have somehow been devalued but this devaluation was reasonably (that term again) necessary for the buyer to determine whether or not they were acceptable to him - s20(6)(b). the 6 month warranty period doesn't apply to auctions, as expressly stated in s55(1).

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KMartin
"also, the buyer can rescind (cancel) the contract/sale within 5 working days, and you have to accept that and return his cash."

 

I dont see how this would work with auctions.

What about lots "sold as is"?

The buyer can buy it, test it, and then return it?

In terms of traditional auction concepts this would not make sense.

 

Traditional auction in SA is no more. The Estate Agency group is also up in arms. Think about it, they auction a house, highest bidder backs out, the new buyer takes the house, if in the cool off period he finds the floor of his new R1M wooden house next to the sea makes a noise, he can cancel the deal. The Agents must also states living next to the sea, your metal frames or what it may be will rust ect...

 

SOLD AS IS, is not allowed under the new act. You have to list pretty much all you can about the item and don't forget about anything that may make he/she return it.

 

Buy it, try it, return it : if the item was opened or not returnd in exact same order as was delivered you may charge the buyer a fee, as long as that was also listed in the terms of sale.

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voldermort

the cooling off period applies for direct marketing (s20(2)(a)) and also for any goods the consumer didn't get to examine himself before the sale happened (s20(2)(b)), which means anything & everything on BoB, in which case he can return them for any reason listed in s19(5) (although in this case it's a "reasonable period", I'd say it's safe to assume that what would be reasonable would be the 5 working days expressly mentioned in the act). so either way, there's a cooling off period that has to be adhered to.

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voldermort

here's all the information you'd have to give to any buyers in terms of the act, s26(3)(a) regarding sales records:

 

a) The supplier’s full name (which would be eg: Sam Jackson), or registered business name, and VAT registration

number, if any;

(b) the address of the premises at which, or from which, the goods or services

were supplied;

© the date on which the transaction occurred;

(d) a name or description of any goods or services supplied or to be supplied;

(e) the unit price of any particular goods or services supplied or to be supplied;

(f) the quantity of any particular goods or services supplied or to be supplied;

(g) the total price of the transaction, before any applicable taxes;

(h) the amount of any applicable taxes; and

(i) the total price of the transaction, including any applicable taxes.

 

no mention is made anywhere in the Act of an ID number needing to be given.

also no mention is made when this needs to be given to the buyer so presumably it can be sent along with the parcel.

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bitesize
if you are a registered buiseness you have to provide your buiseness details, if you a private seller an ID.

 

Maybe BOB has to introduce a system where every seller and buyer has to do something like 'ricca" there profile that the seller and buyer get each others details. maybe a way to stop a little of that fraud.

 

as for a second tell numer, that is a good idea, but the buyer is also only by the new act allowed to contact you during buiseness hours 8am to 5pm monday to friday. If he/she calls after 5pm he/she is in contempt of the act them selves.

 

oh well that's me done, sorry i won't give out my ID to just anyone to do with as they please, so i'm out as a seller.

 

wonder how this will affect those selling in junkmail and online free classifieds.

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bitesize
here's all the information you'd have to give to any buyers in terms of the act, s26(3)(a) regarding sales records:

 

a) The supplier’s full name (which would be eg: Sam Jackson), or registered business name, and VAT registration

number, if any;

(b) the address of the premises at which, or from which, the goods or services

were supplied;

© the date on which the transaction occurred;

(d) a name or description of any goods or services supplied or to be supplied;

(e) the unit price of any particular goods or services supplied or to be supplied;

(f) the quantity of any particular goods or services supplied or to be supplied;

(g) the total price of the transaction, before any applicable taxes;

(h) the amount of any applicable taxes; and

(i) the total price of the transaction, including any applicable taxes.

 

no mention is made anywhere in the Act of an ID number needing to be given.

also no mention is made when this needs to be given to the buyer so presumably it can be sent along with the parcel.

 

Exactly! KMartin where are you getting your information from?

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

HI

There is incorrect information being given out about the CPA-Firstly any item sold on auction are excluded by the CPA FROM RIGHT OF RETURN AND IMPLIED WARRANTY BENEFITS,

2nd hand goods are totally exempt from the CPA and only subject to the sellers own guarantee as given.

The cooling off period only relates to direct marketing mainly by mail order and catalogues-IF you enter a store and buy you are not subject to he cooling off period of 5 days.

Selling on bob is not direct marketing unless i email you direct and ask you to buy that item,

The right to return goods not examined(please note auctioned items will be exempt)will only apply to againdirect marketing and mail order and catalogues and explicitly where the sample provided and the description do not match the the actual item in question-this will not apply to 2nd hand goods or items bought on auction-If you have a buy now on bob and give dimensions and accurate description there will be no right for the buyer to return it.The buyer may only return for defective items and not because they changed their mind.

I hope this clarifies some of the incorrect info being bandied about.

ALSO please note when this act was promulgated the E COMMERCE WAS NOT REALLY CONSIDERED so there will be changes along the way and the interpretation of the act is also open to conjecture

NEIL

Edited by ATA STAMP CENTRE

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voldermort

what section of the act excludes second hand goods (i can't find it anywhere in the act)?

where in s20 are auctions exempt from the consumer returning them? the cooling off period where 5 working days is given applies to direct marketing, but in cases where the consumer didn't get the chance to actually examine the goods (again, how does this exclude auctions?) he can return them within a reasonable period (which i said i would assume to be 5 days using the cooling off period as a benchmark for what could be considered "reasonable", but that doesn't make my assumption law. what exactly is contemplated by the act will only be decided probably by a judge in a court) for any reason listed in s19(5).

Edited by voldermort

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Cali Craft and Gems

How does the CPA affect a sale of a vehicle (used)?

 

The reason I'm asking is that my mom bought a car last week from a private individual, but a registered company did the transaction (exchanged the money, did the paperwork, supplied invoice, etc.). We asked if there was anything to disclose - car been in accident, all in working order, nothing we should be aware of and they only said that the aircon needed attention, no accident damage, and everything else was 100%. My mom discovered later that evening that the driver's window would not wind up completely, the car has been in an accident, the dashboard lights (including petrol light) does not work, etc. The woman claimed that the vehicle was roadworthy and my mom just needed to do a change of ownership. Went to the traffic dept only to find out that the vehicle was listed as stolen (it had been stolen, but was recovered within 2 hours), needed a RWC, etc. To get the RWC the front tyres needed to be replaced, and we are still battling to get the car into Mom's name. Apparently the owner has now left for the UK permanently... but the woman who handled the sale (and who was paid 20% of the transaction value by the previous owner to sell the vehicle) is claiming "innocence".

 

Somewhere I read on a webpage about the act something about the CPA being effective for certain transactions 6 months BEFORE 1 April 2011!?! But overall it would be interesting to know how the act affects different industries as we are in the process of buying the house across the road from us, plus my mom wants to sell this "new" car too as she wants a bakkie (and Gran is probably selling her townhouse by the weekend too - we'll have confirmation tomorrow night).

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

HI

As i view my trading on bob seriously i consulted a corporate lawyer with experience in these matters so as to ensure that i will be able to trade without incident.

The information as i have stated is the answers as given to me on the questions i raised.

NEIL

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KMartin
Exactly! KMartin where are you getting your information from?

 

Workshop on the new CPA.

 

You would only have to give your ID if you are not a registered buiseness. Registered buiseness owners give the buiseness details.

The Act also states you have to have the details infront of you to be able to decide if you want to follow on with the purchase.

so if one made payment and then only got the info you can decide to cancel and you never had all the info in the start.

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lilythepink
Workshop on the new CPA.

 

You would only have to give your ID if you are not a registered buiseness. Registered buiseness owners give the buiseness details.

The Act also states you have to have the details infront of you to be able to decide if you want to follow on with the purchase.

so if one made payment and then only got the info you can decide to cancel and you never had all the info in the start.

 

But does this apply to auctions? That is the question I keep asking!

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LikeNeedWant

With regards the Post Office being held accountable for damages or lost parcels, I wouldn't interpret the Act that way, since it clearly states that the Supplier carries the risk until the Buyer takes delivery. We, as a Seller, are the Supplier, the Post Office is merely a service provider.

 

Spending some time going through the Act again, some things to note:

 

  1. Parts of the Act should be read in conjunction with the Electronic Communication and Transactions Act, as some exemptions do apply under certain Sections.
  2. There is no way around the Address issue. Chapter 4 - Business Names and Industry Codes of Conduct refers:

 

  • Section 79(2) - A person doing anything contemplated in subsection (1) must include the following details on any trade catalogue, trade circular, business letter, order for goods, sales record or statement of account that the person issues - (b) a statement of the primary place at which, or from which, the business is carried on.
  • Subsection (1) defines a Supplier as a person who operates a business, advertises, promotes, offers to supply or supplies any goods or services

Some encouraging news from the Get Closure Blog is

 

Any business making a turnover of less than R3-million will be protected by the Consumer Protection Act. According to getclosure Director Patrick Deale, “Businesses under this threshold will be treated as ‘consumers’. The idea behind this is to give more rights to SMEs in relation to their dealings with bigger and more established businesses.”

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bitesize
Workshop on the new CPA.

 

You would only have to give your ID if you are not a registered buiseness. Registered buiseness owners give the buiseness details.

The Act also states you have to have the details infront of you to be able to decide if you want to follow on with the purchase.

so if one made payment and then only got the info you can decide to cancel and you never had all the info in the start.

 

then i stand by what i said, i won't be a seller any longer. does the ID issue include those selling in free online classifieds or junkmail? it's like giving out your passwords to any tom **** or harry. can you provide a link to where the ID is mentioned in the Act?

 

can bid or buy verify that we have to give our ID's if you're a private seller?

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LikeNeedWant

Oh, and I have done a full search of the Act, and nowhere does it state you have to provide your ID if you are not a registered business. What it states is that you cannot operate a business, advertise, promote, offer to supply or supply any goods or services under any name except the person's full name as recorded in an identity document or other recognised identification document, in the case of an individual.

 

Even under Sales Records does it not state that an ID number needs to be provided.

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bitesize
Oh, and I have done a full search of the Act, and nowhere does it state you have to provide your ID if you are not a registered business. What it states is that you cannot operate a business, advertise, promote, offer to supply or supply any goods or services under any name except the person's full name as recorded in an identity document or other recognised identification document, in the case of an individual.

 

Even under Sales Records does it not state that an ID number needs to be provided.

 

Thanks, I've also queried a few places where articles were written and I'm sure they will say the same thing. I think maybe in the Workshop KMartin attended the information wasn't relayed properly.

 

Giving out your ID number to every buyer when your are a private individual opens you up to Identity Theft and Fraud.

 

Sorry KMartin, if you have a link to a section of the Act that says your ID has to be given please share it with us. Or provide the name of the company that gave the workshop so that I can ask them. This will make my decision as to whether or not I remain as a seller on bid or buy.

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wayjen

From what I have read on the forum there seems to be allot of confusion regarding us sellers and buyers on BoB and I think some of us are now rethinking our continued stay on Bid or Buy because of these confusing issues. What we need is to know how the Act affects us on BoB.

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qball

Guys, there is no need for panic or confusion at this time. We are consulting our attorney to give us some insight (not to be confused with legal advice, rather a form of guidance) and will be setting up a sort of CPA FAQ. Most people will be well within the bounds of the CPA, it will just take getting used to...:wink:

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qball
if you are a registered buiseness you have to provide your buiseness details, if you a private seller an ID.

 

Maybe BOB has to introduce a system where every seller and buyer has to do something like 'ricca" there profile that the seller and buyer get each others details. maybe a way to stop a little of that fraud.

 

as for a second tell numer, that is a good idea, but the buyer is also only by the new act allowed to contact you during buiseness hours 8am to 5pm monday to friday. If he/she calls after 5pm he/she is in contempt of the act them selves.

 

Private sellers do not have to provide ID numbers, although company registration details will have to be disclosed.

 

bidorbuy is not obliged to "RICA" or verify/vett registered details. Besides that it does not guarantee fraud will be eradicated or stopped and is almost physically impossible to do this for every single user who registers.

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qball
Traditional auction in SA is no more. The Estate Agency group is also up in arms. Think about it, they auction a house, highest bidder backs out, the new buyer takes the house, if in the cool off period he finds the floor of his new R1M wooden house next to the sea makes a noise, he can cancel the deal. The Agents must also states living next to the sea, your metal frames or what it may be will rust ect...

 

SOLD AS IS, is not allowed under the new act. You have to list pretty much all you can about the item and don't forget about anything that may make he/she return it.

 

Buy it, try it, return it : if the item was opened or not returnd in exact same order as was delivered you may charge the buyer a fee, as long as that was also listed in the terms of sale.

 

KMartin, with all due respect, you seem to be sowing many seeds of doubt and providing inaccurate information regarding the Act. We will be posing many of these questions to our attorney's for guidance, in the mean time, please support your posts with examples from the Act itself or make reference to the section in the Act you are commenting on.

 

Many thanks

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brands online

buy it, try it, return it??? - :wtf:

 

If that's the case they need to get their "Act" together!

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bitesize
KMartin, with all due respect, you seem to be sowing many seeds of doubt and providing inaccurate information regarding the Act. We will be posing many of these questions to our attorney's for guidance, in the mean time, please support your posts with examples from the Act itself or make reference to the section in the Act you are commenting on.

 

Many thanks

 

thanks qball, i was really getting my knickers in a serious knot :nuts:. i don't want to leave bid or buy, i don't make many sales but i like the atmosphere and it's safer than other places. at least we know that bid or buy is looking into providing as much info as possible to us and i'm am very grateful for that :smile:.

 

thanks!!!

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qball

There is no stipulation in the Act about individual's ID numbers. So it's very concerning that someone attended a workshop on this and was told this?

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