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coinoisseur

*** Shipwreck Coins - Artefacts & Memorabilia ***

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

Hello Everyone

 

I thought we could start something interesting. I am NO expert on this subject, but I do love shipwreck coins and artefacts. The South African coastline graces some very popular shipwrecks.

 

How about the forum members posting stories, articles, pictures etc from their collection or other sources. I am sure there are many avid wreck divers and collectors out there that could make this an interesting post.

 

Maybe ADMIN could make it a STICKY.....

 

Lets get it rolling Guys....... Geejay..... Pierre Henri.... Herman.... I know you guys love ShipWreck.....

 

Cheers

Edited by Coinoisseur

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

The following is an article taken from Bloomburg. Its the latest wreck discovered of the Namibian coast in April 2008. De Beers were the company digging when they discovered it. They have now stopped all operations at this site. This is one hell of a find with a load of treasure.

 

108025_debeers1.jpg

 

April 30 (Bloomberg) -- De Beers, the world's biggest undersea diamond miner, said its geologists in Namibia found the wreckage of an ancient sailing ship still laden with treasure, including six bronze cannons, thousands of Spanish and Portuguese gold coins and more than 50 elephant tusks.

The wreckage was discovered in the area behind a sea wall used to push back the Atlantic Ocean in order to search for diamonds in Namibia's Sperrgebiet or ``Forbidden Zone.''

``If the experts' assessments are correct, the shipwreck could date back to the late 1400s or early 1500s, making it a discovery of global significance,'' Namdeb Diamond Corp., a joint venture between De Beers and the Namibian government, said in an e-mailed statement from the capital, Windhoek, today.

The site yielded a wealth of objects, including several tons of copper, more than 50 elephant tusks, pewter tableware, navigational instruments, weapons and the gold coins, which were minted in the late 1400s and early 1500s, according to the statement.

The Namibian government will claim ownership of the treasure found, Halifa Mbako, group corporate affairs manager at Namdeb, said in a telephone interview from Windhoek today.

Namibian Law

``By Namibian law, discoveries of this nature belong to the state,'' he said. ``The discovery was found in our mining area, but the treasure belongs to the state.'' The Namibian government is in consultations with the governments of Spain and Portugal to try and identify the ship, which was most likely a trading vessel, given the goods on board, said.

On April 1, Bob Burrell, the head of Namdeb's Mineral Resource Department, found some rounded copper ingots and the remains of three bronze cannons in the sand.

``All mining operations were halted, the site secured and Dr. Dieter Noli, an archaeologist and expert in the Sperrgebiet, was brought into the project and identified the cannons as Spanish breach-loaders of a type popular in the early 1500s,'' Namdeb said.

The find may be the oldest sub-Saharan shipwreck ever discovered, Namdeb said.

``If this proves to be a contemporary of the ships sailed by the likes of Diaz, Da Gama and Columbus, it would be of immense national and international interest and Namibia's most important archaeological find of the century,'' according to the statement.

Diamonds have been mined along the south-western coast of Namibia and in its coastal waters for the last 100 years. De Beers, the world's largest diamond company, is 45 percent owned by Anglo American Plc, 40 percent held by the Oppenheimer family and 15 percent owned by the government of Botswana.

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bargainhunter01    10
bargainhunter01

On April 1, bidorbuy Burrell, the head of Namdeb's Mineral Resource Department, found some rounded copper ingots and the remains of three bronze cannons in the sand.

 

Is the date and first name the key??

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Guest   
Guest

Superb Anthony.

 

I were to be involved, But turned it down.

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Invinci    10
Invinci

Hi Anthony

 

At our previous meeting, in Johannesburg, of the National Numismatic Society (NNS) in the middle of the year, we were all treated to a wonderful discussion by Dr G de Bruin regarding shipwrecked coins.

 

This has been a passion of his for years, and it was interesting to all to learn and experience in his enthusiam and knowledge. He began his discussion talking about this find that you mention above and interesting enough was the find on all the old navigational instruments and certain coinage.

 

He also had a selection of shipwrecked coins for us to view, and went into a lengthy discussion with wonderful colour photos on the history of shipwrecked coins.

 

I will try an obtain an electronic copy for everyone here as i only have a hard copy on me. I will try make it available on the forum including the pictures when i have a chance to get an electronic copy (with admin's permission of course).

 

Kind Regards

Invinci

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

Hi Invinci

 

I have copy of the talk by Dr Du Bruin. It was sent to me by Brian Hern. I have requested permission to publish this on the forum. Hopefully I will have an answer on Monday.

 

I was fascinated by the mans passion for the hobby..... I think it will benefit everyone. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it

 

Regards

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Guest

The wreck of the Merestein:

 

Having Dived the Merestein, and salvaged on it..

One of the most difficult wrecks to work.

Conditions are not favourable in the best of conditions.

 

The Following Coins of mine were sold recently to the

 

Nederlandsche Scheepswrakken Museum.

 

390419_Copy_of_s1.jpg

 

390419_Copy_of_sc1.jpg

 

And one of my Personal Favourites..

 

A Rare Portrait Ducat of Philip IIII DATED 1687 ..

Now sold to a collector in UK.

 

390419_Copy_of_phil_4_006.jpg

 

I have supplied several Museums worldwide with various AUTHENTIC Shipwreck "Treasures", Coins and Grapeshot, Sounding leads and other articles.

:D

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On April 1, bidorbuy Burrell, the head of Namdeb's Mineral Resource Department, found some rounded copper ingots and the remains of three bronze cannons in the sand.

 

Is the date and first name the key??

 

It should read "B o b Durell" as the forum change the name automatically to bid or buy.

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bargainhunter01    10
bargainhunter01

Askies, my fout!

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geejay50    10
geejay50

Types of coins found on Shipwrecks

 

Hi Anthony,

 

My interest as you know in Numismatics started when my diving friends and I pooled scarce money and imported a metal detector that found coins on old VOC Shipwrecks in the days when there was not so much red tape.

 

The silver coin you show in your posting on the Namibian Shipwreck is a 4 reale from Spain minted at the time of 1480 when Ferdinand and Isabella I reigned and united Spain they sent Christopher Columbus on his way to discover America.It is the first striking of coins by what we now know as Spain. The abbreviated inscrpition reads FERNANDVS ET ELSAB on the Reverse that you show. I recognise it as the same coin that was found amongst others on the Santiago wreck which was wrecked on Bassas da India between Madagascar and Mozambique in 1585. My friends found a nice load of silver coins,emeralds,astrolabe, human remains, several bronze canons,pottery jars and other interesting artifacts that I have photos of.Their story is an epic on its own.

 

This Namibian wreck is thus from a similar time and as wrecks go is much more rare than any of the USA Florida wrecks because trade was still in its infancy then.

 

I hope they find out as much as they can about the wreck and make it available to the world.

 

Regards Geejay

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

Hi Georg

 

Thanks for the post. I know your passion for shipwreck coins. I am sure that everyone would love to see some of the pictures or hear some of your experiences or your friends.

 

I have got permission from Dr de Bruin to post his talk on the forum. I am just waiting for the pictures to come......

 

 

Regards

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

The following are coins salvaged off the wrecks "The Meeresteijn" at Saldana Bay 1702 and "The Fame" at Sea Point 1822. Not often do you see these coins in this condition.

Edited by Coinoisseur

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

*** UPDATE *** UPDATE ***

 

Namibian Portuguese Shipwreck Hailed As One Of The Best

 

ORANJEMUND: A treasure-laden 16th century Portuguese vessel that ran aground off Namibia’s coast was hailed by archaeologists yesterday as providing a rare insight into the heyday of seafaring explorations between Europe and the Orient. This is a cultural treasure of immense importance. Bruno Werz said when offering journalists a first glimpse of the precious find at the excavation site in Namibia’s diamond-rich ‘sperrgebiet’ or no-go zone. The shipwreck, which was discovered by geologists dredging for diamonds in April, is the oldest found in the sub-Saharan Africa. Werz’s team of scientists are from Namibia, the US, Portugal, South Africa and Zimbabwe. It was thought that the ship was linked to Bartholomew Diaz, the first European to round the Cape of Good Hope, in 1488, but some of the ships’ 2000 gold coins were dated October 1525, 25 years after Diaz disappeared. A Portuguese archaeologist described it as the best preserved example of Portuguese seafaring outside Portugal. With diamond mining company Namdeb spending vast amounts to keep the sea at bay while the excavations take place, pressure is on the team to finish the work by early next month.

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

The Fame Shipwreck

 

Hi Anthony

 

Regarding The Fame Shipwreck...

 

There is an Afrikaans book called "Dooie Duikers Deel Nie" loosely translated to "Dead Divers do not Share"

 

A File exists on The Fame that I will share with you if both George and a second party agree to that.

 

If Georg says OK I will get the OK from the second party.

 

Please e-mail me if you are interested. It is a file consisting of ten year of research on The Fame by local diving experts. I nearly died on that site but the rest is an interesting treasure hunt for sure …

 

Pierre-Henri

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

Pierre, I was wondering when you were going to post. You have my OK. I am sure that Georg will say OK as well.

 

Many Thanks...... Cant wait....

 

Cheers

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

The REIGERSDAAL - Taken off the VOC Shipwrecks

 

The REIGERSDAAL was a vessel of 850 tons, built in 1738 at the Amsterdam Yard for the Amsterdam Chamber of the Dutch East India Company, and commanded by Johannes Band.

 

She had left Texel on 31 May 1747 with 297 souls, eight chests of silver specie of approximately 29.000 coins, and a cargo of lead ingots on board. In October she reached Dassen Island (South Africa), having lost 125 men of scurvy en route. Unable to anchor because of the weather, she lowered a boat to fetch some rabbits and birds from the island. Eventually after much tacking her crew brought the vessel to anchor on the north side of Robben Island in Table Bay, and there, because 83 of the surviving men were indisposed with scurvy, the REIGERSDAAL remained at anchor untill the next day.

 

She was in a bad position: the strong south-easterly wind prevented the vessel from reaching the nearby anchorage in Table Bay, so it was decided to weigh anchor and try to return to Dassen Island or else Saldanha Bay. While raising anchor, the cable parted. The REIGERSDAAL then attempted to sail northwards but the crew were unable to handle her properly and an hour later she ran aground on an offshore reef at Springfontein Point. About 15 men climbed into a boat to try to take a line ashore, but three-quarters of an hour later, when they reached the shore, they saw that their vessel had been smashed to pieces. Some 157 men died in the wreck.

 

Three days after the wreck had slipped below the waves, one of the money chests on board containing four small bags of silver coins was discovered on the beach. In all, 3.610 'Mexicanen' were discovered at this time. Undoubtedly many others were scattered about to be lost forever.

 

The place where the REIGERSDAAL wrecked, according to the diary of the Cape Governor for Monday 30 October 1747, "consisted of a reef about a quarter of a mile long, roughly an elongated hook, where the seas even in calm weather are so high and rough that a person would risk great danger by going in a boat in search of the remaining money chests." Perhaps this is why the wreck of the REIGERSDAAL dimmed into history until it was relocated in 1979.

 

She was discovered in 1979 by the crack South African salvage team of Brian Clark and Tubby Gericke, who despite an intense search failed to find the vast treasure which the ship was known to have carried. However, they managed to salvage six large bronze muzzle-loading cannon adorned with beautiful curved lifting-lugs in the shape of dolphins; the cannon were lifted with the help of an helicopter. Although the cannon were unfortunately worn a little smooth as a result of years of wave action, it was still possible to make out the crest of the Amsterdam Chamber of the Dutch East India Company they bore. The salvors also removed some of the 30-ton cargo of lead bars, and then went on to a more profitable wreck site.

 

The next group of salvors at the scene sonsisted of Jimmy Rawe and Arthur Ridge. The recovered approximately 6.800 coins. Most were Mexico City mint 8 reales Philip V 'Pillar Dollars' dating from 1732 to 1744.

Word of the wreck's whereabouts spread among the Cape Town diving community, and soon many rival teams of divers were searching for the treasure, and one day it was discovered lying in a deep gully, covered by cannon-balls. The large, concreted pile of silver coins was broken up by a rather destructive explosive charge, and feverish divers began filling bags with handfuls of perfectly preserved pieces-of-eight, silver Mexican pillar dollars in denominations of eight and four reals dated from 1732-1744, and a fair number of Guatemalan, Mexican, Ptosi and Lima silver cobs. A tragic accident occurred, however, when a diver was pulled down by the weight of his salvage bag.

 

No one knows for sure how many coins were recovered altogether, but it must have been in the region of 20.000; one large pile was removed, like the cannon, with the aid of a helicopter.

 

In addition the divers discovered four more bronze muzzle-loading swivel-guns with the Amsterdam Chamber's insignia. These guns were in perfect condition, still mounted in their iron frames, and are possible the best-preserved bronze cannon ever found on the coast of South Africa.Besides the coins, lead and bronze cannon, many other

 

items were found at the site, including anchors, cannon-balls, cast iron muzzle-loading cannon, silver and pewter buckles, silverware, clay pipes, wine-bottles, bricks, brass pins, grape-shot, navigational instruments and sounding-leads, one of which weighed 27,5 kg.

 

The wreck lies in shallow water on the northern tip of an offshore reef and her anchors and a number of badly corroded cast iron cannons can clearly be seen.

 

108025_reigersdaal_1747.jpg

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

Grosveno Wreck: Some Personal Information

 

It was because of my interest in Shipwreck coins that I stumbled upon Bid-or-Buy a few years ago.

 

I was doing some research on the Meerensteijn wreck on Google when I saw that some coins from that wreck are being sold here on BoB.

 

A few weeks after that on a Saturday morning, me and a friend of mine were driving to Matjiesfontein on a metal detecting trip and he asked me if I know anything about the East Indiaman, the Grosvenor, that sank in 1782 on the Pondoland Coast. The vessel was reputed to carry a fortune in gold.

 

I obviously knew about the wreck as at time, it was big news on SABC television as an East European salvage team was busy salvaging the wreck in cooperation with the (I think) East London museum or some or other official SA Heritage organization.

 

But what my friend told me was astonishing news. Although each and every find made on the wreck was supposed to be recorded by the authorities, some escaped the net, and turned up for sale in Cape Town a few weeks later.

 

If I remember correctly, he was sitting in a well known Cape Town restaurant one afternoon with his wife when he saw that some youngish guys sitting at the next table where showing each other some coins and talking in a foreign language.

 

As a coin collector he stood up and walked over to their table and asked them if he could see the coins. They were quite drunk and happily showed him some coins and then after a brief discussion it came out that they were actually members of the East European salvaging team that worked the Grosvenor at that stage.

 

To make a long story short, they were stealing coins from the salvage operation and offering them to who ever in bars and restaurants around Cape Town.

 

My friend did not buy any but maybe someone bought some coins from that wreck that must surely be illegal if they should ever turn up in the numismatic trade.

 

But I suppose, with out a solid provenance, they will dim into obscurance. How very sad…

 

Kind regards

 

Pierre Henri

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Yip , Pierre Henri

It were myself that were seling coins Both from the Reigersdal and the Merenstein, at that stage.

 

The driver that drowed were Pieter von Doesenberg if I remember correctly.

 

I Had Pillar dollars from every year of the wreck, most in perfectly uncircilated condition.

 

It were sold to a Shipwreck museum in Netherlands.

 

I actually had supper tonight with the curators at Mt Nelson.

 

We discussed some projects for a research vessel of their due in CT soon.

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Pilgrims Rest    10
Pilgrims Rest

Anthony/Pierre - Shipwreck Coins

 

Hi Anthony/Pierre...

 

Hope you guys are well....

 

I have no idea how to list photos on the forum...so Ive opened a listing under my name with 4 shipwreck? coins that i obtained....

 

Anthony...I put your name in the item description to make it easy to find....can you guys please give me some insight into these coins and maybe add a value to them....?

 

Regards

ZC

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

Hi ZC

 

we tried to locate the listing but it was closed. Can you email me the pictures?

 

Regards

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

Odessey Finds HMS Victory - Sunk 1744

 

Odyssey finds Victory

 

posted 2/2/09

By Beth Deisher

COIN WORLD Staff

 

Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc. announced in London Feb. 2 its discovery of the shipwreck of HMS Victory, one of the greatest warships built in the 18th century.

 

108025_090204095047_victory.jpg

 

Image courtesy of Odyssey Marine Exploration Inc., copyright 2009. Artist John Batchelor depicts the Royal Navy warship HMS Victory that sank in the English Channel in 1744.

 

According to historical accounts, when HMS Victory sank during a violent storm on Oct. 5, 1744, it carried among its cargo approximately 100,000 ounces of gold coins weighing approximately 4 tons; the coins most likely were minted in Portugal and Brazil.

 

An Odyssey spokesperson told Coin World that no coins have yet been recovered from the site, which is located in the English Channel beyond the United Kingdom's Territorial Waters and Contiguous Zone, nearly 100 kilometers from where the ship was historically believed to have been wrecked near the Channel Islands.

 

When launched, HMS Victory was the mightiest and most technically advanced vessel of the age, armed with some 100 to 110 bronze cannon. Historically, it was the last Royal Navy warship to be lost at sea with a complete complement of bronze cannon. HMS Victory was the flagship of Adm. Sir John Balchin, one of the most respected and longest serving fighting officers in Royal Navy history. He and all aboard drowned when the ship went down in 1744.

 

According to Odyssey researchers, Balchin's Victory represents the only wreck of a first-rate English warship ever to be discovered with its original deployment of bronze cannon. Its 4-ton cannon, which fired a 42-pound cannonball – the largest and most powerful guns used in naval warfare at that time – are unique as the only known examples in existence.

 

By authority of an agreement reached with the U.K. government, Odyssey has recovered two bronze cannon from the wreck of the Victory – a 12-pounder featuring the royal arms of George II and a 4 ton, 42-pounder bearing the crest of George I. The 42-pounder is the only known example of this size gun on dry land.

 

Both guns carry the maker's mark ("SCHALCH") and archetypal dolphin handles, common to bronze cannon of the period. The size, dates and types of guns were key pieces of evidence in identifying the shipwreck as the HMS Victory.

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Guest

Hi Anthony

 

In Marine Archeology, the Primary features in identifying a wreck of this type, is usually 1 of 3 Items:

 

Cannons

Bells

and Cargo.

 

Bells.

 

Bells are Hard to find, But usually is the signature of an older ship.

The name and date are usually engraved.

 

I coastal areas where there is a City, electrolysis can damage it beyond recognition.

The electrical current in the water act as a battery and destroy a lot of non ferrous metal.

 

Cannons:

 

Cannons play a vital part if the ship had been a cannon -bearing vessel.

The amount and type of cannons play a role to distinguish between the types of vessel.

A merchant would carry 24 cannons, where a Ship of the Line or a Man o War up to 76.

A pirate would use a Caravel, with little cannon (12) but speed and maneuverability made it Dangerous to of the best armed merchants.

 

Pirates Preferred to use Chain shot and grape shot compare to merchant vessels and warships. which preferred solid canon balls.

Chain shot is a cannon ball that splits in 2 halves wit a piece of chain between them. It usually fired at the rigging (sails) of the other in order to slow it down or bring it to a stop.

Grape shot is small iron balls they are usually used once the vessel are slowed don. It is primarily to kill and disable crew on the other vessel, be for hand to hand combat.

Solid cannon balls are used to take out of the vessels guns, and sinking it.

 

Cargo:

Wooden wrecks at the time are known to disintegrate completely as toredo worm eat the timber.

where it is in deeper water usually the cargo would be undisturbed and intact.

Porcelain and various other items is not affected and is recognisable.

 

Surf line wrecks, the cargo are buried in sand and moved around , the damage to cargo is a lot more severe.

It is also a lot more difficult to identify the wreck.

 

Time allowing , I would details some older wreck salvages that I had been involved in.

Some items is in the National Cultural Historical Museum, and the "Nederlandsche Skeepsvaart Museum"

 

Cheers Herman

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Guest Guest   
Guest Guest

*** SHIPWRECK COINS - ARTEFACTS & MEMORABILIA ***

 

Hello Everyone

 

I thought we could start something interesting. I am NO expert on this subject, but I do love shipwreck coins and artefacts. The South African coastline graces some very popular shipwrecks.

 

How about the forum members posting stories, articles, pictures etc from their collection or other sources. I am sure there are many avid wreck divers and collectors out there that could make this an interesting post.

 

Maybe ADMIN could make it a STICKY.....

 

Here is the first picture. A Gold Mohur taken off the wreck "The Fame" which sunk off the Cape Coast at Sea Point in 1822. It is a Mohur E.E.I.C 1820. The coin is as found with the Barnicles, sea bed etc still attached to the coin...... The FAME was an English wooden merchant vessel en route to England from Madras, India, the Fame succumbed to a heavy swell and found herself driven onto the rocks at Sea Point, near Table Bay, off South Africa, in June of 1822. All but four lives were saved as the ship broke in two and sank. The wreck was rediscovered in 1965 and yielded a wide variety (but not a big quantity) of coinage, not a cargo but most likely from among the personal belongings of the passengers and crew.

 

108025_mohur_1.jpg108025_mohur_2.jpg

 

Lets get it rolling Guys....... Geejay..... Pierre Henri.... Herman.... I know you guys love ShipWreck.....

 

Cheers

 

Anthony,

I reckon that you should get that E.I.C. gold Mohur cleaned up,so that you can read the date,plus see the details of both sides of that coin.There is a way of cleaning gold without harming it.

 

Aidan.

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coinoisseur    10
coinoisseur

Aidan

 

The coin is worth more in this state than cleaned. I would never clean this coin. The Barnicles and sea bed gives the coin authentication that it indeed came from a shipwreck.

 

Certain coins may be clean, but some you leave as it is....

 

 

Cheers

Edited by Coinoisseur

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Anthony,

Your coin is from the Madras Presidency.I have got a Madras Presidency 1808 10 Cash that was cleaned up after being recovered off the wreck of the Admiral Gardner some years ago.

 

One day,I will be getting my Indian coins scanned & uploaded into my galleries,so that you'd be able to see them for yourself.

 

Aidan.

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