Software - Watch what you buy

[softwaredude 10]

To all the buyers out there who think they are getting a bargain by buying Microsoft products at very low prices. You are being Conned!!!

 

There is a very strict channel model in South Africa for purchasing Microsoft products and browsing the listing, it is very easy to identify the counterfeit product out there.

 

Even if you don't care about buying counterfeit goods, you are still being ripped off! WHY? Because you could actually get the same product for FREE illegally anyway by downloading the product and hacked key off the NET!!!

Edited February 11, 2011 by qball
No external links permitted

[JPBon 10]

Sam firstly this has been discussed several times on here,

secondly having an external link to yourself is actually against the forum rules.

thirdly microsoft themselves deal with illegal software sold on Bid or Buy

[softwaredude 10]

Hi JPBon

 

Thank you for your mail.

 

I would like to start to say that I very new to BOB and very enthusiastic to list my products and services. I do have a problem however that people are selling illegal stuff here, not only software! This immediately creates a problem be the legit sellers cannot compete, so what is the point of even trying to sell your products in an unfair situation.

 

In terms of you referring to my external link, I have read the Forum rules, they do not support your comment. Please can you show me where it states that and I will gladly comply. Besides, if you followed my link you would have noticed that it is a Chat Support link for the benefit of anyone who needs assistance with software related questions, be it about licensing, product features and how to buy!

 

And as far as your third statement is concerned, I am well aware of this as I am one of the people they use to do their audits! The issue is they do not have the man power as you can clearly see this is an ongoing issue that is NOT being resolved.

 

All the best

[ClickandShip 10]

To all the buyers out there who think they are getting a bargain by buying Microsoft products at very low prices. You are being Conned!!!

 

There is a very strict channel model in South Africa for purchasing Microsoft products and browsing the listing, it is very easy to identify the counterfeit product out there.

 

Even if you don't care about buying counterfeit goods, you are still being ripped off! WHY? Because you could actually get the same product for FREE illegally anyway by downloading the product and hacked key off the NET!!!

 

Want to know what you should be paying for software, ask SAM LIVE right now.

 

Done to death...

 

Past boring...

 

Fast approaching highly annoying...

[qball 12]

Hi Software3

 

Please see forum rules here - point 11 in particular - the link you supplied goes directly to your website - http://forum.bidorbuy.co.za/forum-rules-information/3205-forum-posting-rules-please-read.html.

 

Regarding this issue, as previously discussed - this is an ongoing issue and we do try to minimise this with the help of the community and companies like Microsoft.

 

Please simply answer the poll and remain on topic.

 

Thank you.

Cuan

Edited February 11, 2011 by qball

[JPBon 10]

Just to help you.

 

Rule 1: http://forum.bidorbuy.co.za/forum-rules-information/968-using-email-address-business-name-username.html

 

Rule 2: http://forum.bidorbuy.co.za/forum-rules-information/3205-forum-posting-rules-please-read.html

11. Publication of URLs (links):1. This forum is intended as a meeting place for bidorbuy users predominantly aimed at assisting each other with trading on bidorbuy. You may not advertise any third party websites or businesses on this forum. No external links are permitted (i.e. links other than those on the www.bidorbuy.co.za domain) except when linking to a manufacturer's web site, e.g. linking to Nokia's web site for more information on a specific model of cell phone for sale.

[qball 12]

Hi JP

 

I think software3 gets the point now...

 

Thanks

Cuan

[JPBon 10]

Sorry Cuan I posted at the same time as you.

[softwaredude 10]

Ok, I dont think there is space for any shooting any more bullets into me.

 

Forum Rules. This is what the link at the bottom of a new post or editing a post called Forum Rules says.

 

The administrators and moderators of bidorbuy.co.za Forum will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this site, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of bidorbuy.co.za Forum, nor vBulletin Solutions, Inc. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

 

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

 

The owners of bidorbuy.co.za Forum reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any content item for any reason.

 

As you can see, no reference to Linking at all. My sincere apologies for reading the wrong Forum rules. I know have read the "Other" rules and will comply.

 

Also did not know that username cannot be same as company name. Will change this too!

 

Please accept my apologies for this. I am learning!

 

What I will not apologise for is bringing this up again though. I know that this "issue" can be dealt with very quickly, almost as quick as how I am shot down for bringing it up! I am now wondering why this is such a touchy subject.

 

I guess I will have to go and put on my bullet proof jacket now!

[JPBon 10]

Software3 the only reason I think people are touchy about the subject is because its been brought up at least 3 times in the last week alone. If MS are slow at checking out the problem then thats their problem is the sentiment of most. I for one would never buy software online for just this reason.

[admin 11]

Hi software3,

 

No need for the vest, my gun is loaded with 4.6 mm bullets (.18") that can pass through a twenty layer kevlar vest with 1.5 mm of titantium backing at 150 m :twisted::toung:

 

Thank you for your comments, but, we are satisfied with the way we are handling these listings at the moment, with the help of Microsoft themselves. It is an ongoing issue as Cuan said, discussions will be held with Microsoft, not on the forum.

 

Please keep reporting listings that you deem to be illegal and it will be followed up with Microsoft.

 

 

I thank you :wink:

[qball 12]

We are all here to help each other.

Cuan

[softwaredude 10]

Phew, I am still alive. Hey Admin, almost as effective as my bazooka :laugh:

 

JPBon - I hear you. I definitely would not buy software online if this is what is going on either.

 

ClickandShip - It would be very interesting know where you get your Windows 7 from..... Seems like it too good to be true?

 

Anyway, I shall now return to my box and see if anything changes.

[JPBon 10]

Phew, I am still alive. Hey Admin, almost as effective as my bazooka :laugh:

 

JPBon - I hear you. I definitely would not buy software online if this is what is going on either.

 

ClickandShip - It would be very interesting know where you get your Windows 7 from..... Seems like it too good to be true?

 

Anyway, I shall now return to my box and see if anything changes.

 

Eish do you come from a box we already have Wayne (Wayjen) who travels in a trolley.

[capetown1 10]

Bidorbuy turns a blind-eye to piracy.

 

I have to agree with "softwaredude" on this one. There is a user "Ebook Trader" who is clearly

selling pirated game packages on BoB. He/she uses the following excuse:

Anytime a copyright expires, it is added to the public domain and anyone can use it. These games are all in the public domain, so I have resell rights.

 

 

If I copyright expires on a game, you don't "suddenly" inherit resale rights for games.

And to add insult to injury, many of the games that are being sold by this user are still

being sold by the original game studio "BigFish games"!!!

 

It would seem to me that BidorBuy is clearly turning a blind-eye to this, since I have previously

reported this to their community watch and was outright ignored! :mad:

 

Below are a list of games Ebook Trader is selling, that I can already verify are still on sale by the

owners:

 

Other PC Games - HIDDEN OBJECTS GAMES BUNDLE for sale in Durban (ID:31964601)

 

Aveyond: The Lost Orb - $6.99 on BigFish Games

Big City Adventure: New York City $6.99 on BigFish Games

Hide & Secret - $6.99 on BigFish Games

Holly 2: Magic Land - $6.99 on BigFish Games

 

This was just the first 4 games I searched for on only one of Ebook Trader's many listings!!!

 

If you consider that Ebook Trader sells you 25x Pirated Games for R39.00

and the games usually cost $6.99 x 25 = $174.25 = R 1250!!!

 

Now it doesn't take a genius to know that what Ebook Trader is doing is illegal,

but it seems BidorBuy chooses to support it since they earn a tiny commission

for every sale.

 

Shame on you Ebook Trader, you know what you're doing is wrong. And shame on you

BidorBuy for choosing to ignore and support it! :mad:

[softwaredude 10]

Hey Capetown1. Ditto. Watch this space .........

[BMW_M3_CSL 10]

It is not only MS software - I have bought software which I thought would be fully functional in SA (I admit I DIDNT ask the question) and now I have software that means absolutely nothing to me. Next time, I will rather buy directly from the source as I have always done in the past. My days of buying software on BoB (nothing against BoB) are OVER.

[Libertas Computers 10]

Ok, as far as I know, games such as these are considered (by the seller) as abandonware. Basically it is products that doesn't have anymore copyright on it. It's not too technical, but go read here

 

But there is one important bit, such as the fact that there are other companies that still sell it, then basically they bought the rights, there are various other explanations that goes with it.

 

"Software companies and manufacturers may change their names, go bankrupt, enter into mergers, or cease to exist for a variety of reasons. When this happens, product rights are usually transferred to another company that may elect not to sell or support products acquired.

 

In most cases, software classed as abandonware is not in the public domain, as it has never had its original copyright revoked and some company or individual still owns exclusive rights. Therefore, downloading such software is usually considered copyright infringement, though in practice copyright holders rarely enforce their abandonware copyrights"

 

Hope this helps, my verdict is unsure..

[capetown1 10]

Yes, the concept of "Abandonware" is understood by most people. The point I'm trying to get

across is that the games being sold by Ebook Trader are NOT ABANDONWARE, in fact some

of the games which Ebook Trader claims to be "on the public domain" are still very new (©2009).

 

BigFish Games has the selling rights since they are the creators of these games. Ebook Trader seems to

think that because he was able to obtain Cracked Versions of these games, that he/she has some sort of

permission to sell them!

 

BidorBuy has done NOTHING to put a stop to this and is therefore as "Ebook Trader".

 

At any rate, lets assume these games are currently classified as Abandonware (Which I Can Assure You

They're Not.). What right does Ebook Trader have to sell them? Just because software is freely available

doesn't mean you can sell it as if it were your own!

 

These are just some of the current illegal listings of Ebook Trader Below:

Family - HIDDEN OBJECTS GAMES BUNDLE for sale in Durban (ID:31969208)

Other PC Games - Addictive PC Gaming Package.. For kids & you.. for sale in Durban (ID:32642026)

Action - TEENS GAMING PACKAGE for sale in Durban (ID:32642030)

Other PC Games - AWESOME GAMING PACKAGE for sale in Durban (ID:32982670)

 

I'm appealing to BidorBuy to search for ANY one of these games here:

http://www.bigfishgames.com

(The REAL owner of these games), so that you might be able to understand that what you are doing

is aiding piracy which makes BidorBuy as much of a criminal as Ebook Trader.

[Libertas Computers 10]

I'm not saying it's ok to sell it, I was quoting this bit just for you:

"In most cases, software classed as abandonware is not in the public domain, as it has never had its original copyright revoked and some company or individual still owns exclusive rights."

 

But just remember that there are tons of sellers and BoB will get to it, no need to go off, just send them another email to cummunitywatch with a nice tone and ask them. They'll confirm with the seller exactly what the case is or blacklist him..

[mellowred 10]

I haven't checked all the games availalbe for sale, and am not defending any sellers; I just want to point out that some of the Big Fish games are free to download on All Games Home. Farm Frenzy 2 for example. And these are not the "play for 1hr" downloads, they are permanent.

 

When you consider that it takes up bandwidth and time to download, it may be cheaper to buy these "free" games from someone who does it for you.

[Libertas Computers 10]

When you consider that it takes up bandwidth and time to download, it may be cheaper to buy these "free" games from someone who does it for you.

 

If what you say is correct, this might then be the only problem then.. Not sure if that is allowed, I don't know, I'm still neutral.

[qball 12]

I have to agree with "softwaredude" on this one. There is a user "Ebook Trader" who is clearly

selling pirated game packages on BoB. He/she uses the following excuse:

Anytime a copyright expires, it is added to the public domain and anyone can use it. These games are all in the public domain, so I have resell rights.

 

 

If I copyright expires on a game, you don't "suddenly" inherit resale rights for games.

And to add insult to injury, many of the games that are being sold by this user are still

being sold by the original game studio "BigFish games"!!!

 

It would seem to me that BidorBuy is clearly turning a blind-eye to this, since I have previously

reported this to their community watch and was outright ignored! :mad:

 

Below are a list of games Ebook Trader is selling, that I can already verify are still on sale by the

owners:

 

Other PC Games - HIDDEN OBJECTS GAMES BUNDLE for sale in Durban (ID:31964601)

 

Aveyond: The Lost Orb - $6.99 on BigFish Games

Big City Adventure: New York City $6.99 on BigFish Games

Hide & Secret - $6.99 on BigFish Games

Holly 2: Magic Land - $6.99 on BigFish Games

 

This was just the first 4 games I searched for on only one of Ebook Trader's many listings!!!

 

If you consider that Ebook Trader sells you 25x Pirated Games for R39.00

and the games usually cost $6.99 x 25 = $174.25 = R 1250!!!

 

Now it doesn't take a genius to know that what Ebook Trader is doing is illegal,

but it seems BidorBuy chooses to support it since they earn a tiny commission

for every sale.

 

Shame on you Ebook Trader, you know what you're doing is wrong. And shame on you

BidorBuy for choosing to ignore and support it! :mad:

 

We certainly do not condone, support or encourage fake software or illegal copies. Yes, you did send in an alert, however, just sending an alert saying the software is illegal is not sufficient. We are not software experts - reports must be accompanied with as much detail as possible, including links to supporting documentation or proof, including anything that supports your claims - giving prices is not proof. It also takes time to investigate such matters and try find the necessary proof to substantiate your allegations without any direction from the accuser causes delays as we have to spend a lot of time researching, investigating and confirming your allegations. It really isn't about the commission as you have suggested, rather, that the seller must ensure they are legally allowed to sell the items in question. Should we feel the items are questionable we may remove them until such time as authenticity can be established and the necessary supporting evidence is provided to make an informed decision. Please continue to report suspected items, but please DO include supporting information and any documentation or detail that will make it easier for us to follow up on and take the necessary action.

 

Thank you

Cuan

[capetown1 10]

To Cuan,

 

Well Cuan,

 

There is a simple way to look at this a little closer to home.

Consider this simple case study:

 

Let's use the game Mystery P.I - Vegas Heist as an example.

 

"Take2" a very reputable ecommerce website and seller on BoB is selling a LEGITIMATE copy the game for R 116.00 on BoB.

See this link: Other PC Games - Mystery P.I Vegas Heist (PC) for sale (ID:26767683)

 

Now "Ebook Trader" comes along selling a PIRATED game package consisting of 25 games, one of which is

Mystery P.I - Vegas Heist for just R 39.00 on BoB.

See this link: See Game No. 14 on the list Family - HIDDEN OBJECTS GAMES BUNDLE was sold for R39.00 on 21 Feb at 11:27 by Ebook trader in Durban (ID:31969208)

 

"Ebook Trader" is "overthrowing" a reputable company like "Take2" by selling illegal versions of this game, and "Take2" is in turn

losing sales because of this.

 

So by allowing this to happen, you are actually causing sellers of legitimate products to lose out on sales.

 

This was just one example, I can give you more, but I really don't feel like I should have to.

[qball 12]

Thank you for the "case study", you raise a very valid point.

 

A single email to us with very little substantiation does not give us the tools or enough information/detail to have a starting point - you obviously know more about this than we do, but giving us the bare essentials does not always make it any easier to investigate or take the necessary action. You brought it to our attention and we have acted upon it. You will notice the software/games listings have been closed by us and we have also requested authentication from the seller.

 

Whilst you raise some valid points and we agree with your "case study" as provided above, you also need to take the following into consideration:

 

Firstly, the number of items listed on the site at any given moment (over 600 000 daily), across several thousand categories, these simply cannot be monitored manually on a day to day basis. We have millions of listings every month, no site, no matter how big they are or the number of staff they employ can police this many listings. That is why we rely on community involvement to report such activity to us and which we are always grateful for.

 

Secondly, we are not retailers nor are we specialists or experts in PC or online gaming (particularly these games), thus we cannot simply take your word for it. We need something to work with, further details, supporting documentation, evidence etc. This helps us in our investigation and also helps us make the correct decision quickly and efficiently.

 

There are other factors that need to be taken into account and considered before taking any action regarding what is illegal or counterfeit. We need to be relatively sure that we are doing the right thing and not simply taking someone's word for it.

 

We do act upon such suspect activity, when we are given sufficient reason and supporting evidence to do so, and the necessary steps are taken. It does unfortunately take time as these are not the only issues we deal with on a daily basis.

 

Thanks again for your comments.

 

Kind regards

Cuan