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webbrent

Afriaan Vlok International Letter

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webbrent

Hi Guys,

 

I want to get a feel for public view on a few Covers I have.

 

They are addressed to Mr Adriaan Vlok (Minister of Law and Order 1986-1991) from various countries.

 

They still have the original letters in them. Some are unopened after 20 years. Those that I have opened are letters pertaining to Anti-Apartheid activists that have been illegally detained or wanting to know their whereabouts.

 

Would these be of any interest to Philatelic members?

 

Many Thanks,

Webbrent

Edited by webbrent
Spelling Mistakes :/

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dstorm

Hello Webbrent

I do not think that these covers have philatelic interest in the traditional sense, but there should be real interest in them.

Also Anti-Apartheid / Apartheid memorabilia is a fast growing collecting field.

I love history and would definitely be interested.

Why not list them on auction?

Please be sure to let me know when you have listed.

Thanks and regards

Jacques

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Kit W

Hi Brent

 

I read, with interest, the anti-apartheid letter / memorabilia you want to sell. I agree with Jacques that there will, hopefully, be a lot of inteest in them.

Over the past few years I have sold many signed items by past Ministers from this ere, including Adriaan Vlok, so I wish you well

 

I follow this posting with much interest

 

Welcome to the forum - may we hear a lot from you

 

Regards

 

Kit

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moppies

Brent / Jacques / Kit

 

I do not attack anyone in this thread but there is a few things I do not understand too well. Can someone explain to me:

 

1. Where does these letters come from?

2. Is it not illegal to have unopened correspondence directed to a minister or to any other person for that matter?

3. Why was it never opened or destroyed? Or even why was it never answered?

 

I am asking these questions just to try and understand it better. The letter on auction is quite interesting.

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MsPlod

Moppies makes some extremely valid points here? I would be intrigued to hear the answers - particularly as to how they were obtained unopened.

 

Given the content of the letter on auction, should not the three men in unlawful detention - Matlala, Mathebe and the lawyer Sibonyani - be approached as the letter was about them?

 

The legality of this would appear to be rather shaky IMO?

Brent / Jacques / Kit

 

I do not attack anyone in this thread but there is a few things I do not understand too well. Can someone explain to me:

 

1. Where does these letters come from?

2. Is it not illegal to have unopened correspondence directed to a minister or to any other person for that matter?

3. Why was it never opened or destroyed? Or even why was it never answered?

 

I am asking these questions just to try and understand it better. The letter on auction is quite interesting.

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mellowred

Very valid points Moppies and MsPlod.

 

The letter was CCd to several entities so we can assume that it was read by others at the time. But it is a bit shameful that the person it was addressed to never bothered to open it (that is if he received it).

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MsPlod
The letter was CCd to several entities so we can assume that it was read by others at the time. But it is a bit shameful that the person it was addressed to never bothered to open it (that is if he received it).

Since the addressee was Minister Vlok, it would definitely have been the Minister's office which did not receive it - or did not open it, so interception would have been prior to landing on the Minister's desk (no Minister opens their own mail - LOL). It is the point of interception which intrigues me...

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kyle2

I agree with MsPlod, hi Lee, I know its a bit late in the day for these letters to affect anyone, but it is a concern that they are available in unopened form. I'm sure that they would make interesting reading though. Wikileaks anyone?:grin:

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moppies

Sorry for the Afrikaans:

 

My opinie is dat hierdie briewe persoonlike inligting bevat wat nie vir my of jou bedoel was nie. Waarom dit nou publiek maak? Is dit nie veronderstel op vertroulike inligting te wees nie? Ek meen - dis aan 'n minister gerig en nou het JanPubliek dit in sy / haar besit. Wat jy waar kry? Waar is die sin vir verantwoordelikheid? Wat van menseregte? Vir my is dit onaanvaarbaar - anti-apartheid of te nie!!!

 

Ek is 'n staatsamptenaar en kan my net indink wat met my sou gebeur as ek sulke inligting "lek" of aanstuur na JanPubliek.

 

My vraag is: Hoe sou JY reageer as jy die skrywer van die brief was en jy sien dit op bob?

Edited by moppies

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dstorm

Hello all

The (then) minister obviously received countless letters which he never bothered to read. If he wanted to read them they would have been opened.

To Moppies: The letter was NOT personal. It was meant for public publication. Please read the CC right at the bottom and then decide again.

Many stamp dealers deal in so called “soldiers letters”: letters sent from the war zones to loved ones. Talk about Sotheby’s, Harmers, Spink and other major auction houses and they all have sold some. These letters sometimes fetch high sums and are very often exhibited at major exhibitions.

We call it history. Many books about many major wars contain valuable information that originally came from PERSONAL letters.

Thanks and regards

Jacques

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JPBon

I have lots of mail ( My grandfather ) was British consul to Egypt during the war

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mellowred

I'm even fascinated by old postcards sent to unknowns, so letters that have an international significance are extremely interesting.

 

I also love getting my hands on an old book with an inscription in it. Just the thought that someone sat and penned something to a loved one 100 + years ago and I can touch and read it is wonderful.

 

Lets not even get to those old black and white family portraits.

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webbrent

WOW!!

 

I leave for 2 days and my thread goes bossies. Some heavy discussions going on in here.

 

First off let me say I am excited that this letter has kicked up such controversy. Gets our Philatelic office bound hearts pumping :)

 

To set the record straight before anyone thinks I am a Kleptomaniac or something. As a Kid, I used to go to work with my Uncle, this so happened work place of his used to be Adriaan Vlok's offices. I will not say who he was or what is role was within the Law & Order Department.

 

Adriaan Vlok used to receive thousands of these letters, which you can see were also CC'd onto other publications e.g: The Sowetan, The Star, National Association and so forth. These letters were heavily publicized back in the day, not only Nationally, but Internationally, so the contents of these letters are not "Top Secret".

 

Be it as it may, I was a young Naive 9 Year Old white boy who was somewhat into Philately because his Grandmother gave him a stamp album with some stamps in one Christmas. I was given bags upon bags of these letters from my Uncle. Not knowing what these letters were about I cut up a vast majority of them and soaked off the stamps to put into my collection. Sadly only a select few survived my rampage through these bags armed with nothing but a pair of scissors and a bowl of warm water.

 

20 years down the line and +- 15 unopened letters spared I realised what I had in my possession all these years. How they survived I do not know. However I am glad that they did, as I would hate to be the person that completely destroyed these letters of historic events.

 

I have opened all the letters and displayed them in a album with information about the persons the letters are about as well as Mr Vlok himself. I am hoping to exhibit this album at some stage as soon as I can find the right platform.

 

It would be silly to lock these up or dig a hole and hide them from the world. Our Generation and my kids Generation & generations to come deserve to know this history, it is what will make them true South Africans by understanding who they are and where they have come from and where they should never lead a nation into.

 

If anyone has any further information regarding these letters pls do not hesitate to give me a shout.

 

Many Thanks,

Webbrent

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mellowred

Hi Brent, a really interesting story. At least you saved some of them. Do you remember if there were any handwritten ones in those packets?

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webbrent

Hi Mellow,

 

Yeah, there are 2 or 3 that are actually hand-written.

 

I managed to get hold of one of the Senders from the United States. He was rather disappointed that his letter was never gazed upon or replied to. Sadly it was the case for many of the letters sent by numerous persons to Mr Vlok.

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JPBon
Hi Mellow,

 

Yeah, there are 2 or 3 that are actually hand-written.

 

I managed to get hold of one of the Senders from the United States. He was rather disappointed that his letter was never gazed upon or replied to. Sadly it was the case for many of the letters sent by numerous persons to Mr Vlok.

 

I dont think many politicians world wide are even capable of reading at all

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webbrent
I dont think many politicians world wide are even capable of reading at all

 

Take Bush Jnr for example :)

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JPBon

And about 400 or so of our own

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webbrent
Hi Brent

 

I read, with interest, the anti-apartheid letter / memorabilia you want to sell. I agree with Jacques that there will, hopefully, be a lot of inteest in them.

Over the past few years I have sold many signed items by past Ministers from this ere, including Adriaan Vlok, so I wish you well

 

I follow this posting with much interest

 

Welcome to the forum - may we hear a lot from you

 

Regards

 

Kit

 

 

Many yhanks for the welcoming KitW. Was overlooked through the controversy :)

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mellowred
Hi Mellow,

 

Yeah, there are 2 or 3 that are actually hand-written.

 

I managed to get hold of one of the Senders from the United States. He was rather disappointed that his letter was never gazed upon or replied to. Sadly it was the case for many of the letters sent by numerous persons to Mr Vlok.

 

Fascinating. Do you plan to sell them or keep them? Just out of sheer nostalgic inclinations I would love to see more if possible.

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webbrent

Mellow,

 

For now I only have the one letter up for auction. I am not anticipating on breaking up my Exhibition just yet :)

 

Maybe at a later stage I might put the Exhibit items up for auction on BOB or a Philatelic Auction.

 

Before someone hordes this collection and hides it in a Stamp Cupboard somewhere I want to ensure that it gets seen and is known about.

 

I can take some photo's of the exhibit and mail them to you if you would like? :)

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mellowred
Mellow,

 

For now I only have the one letter up for auction. I am not anticipating on breaking up my Exhibition just yet :)

 

Maybe at a later stage I might put the Exhibit items up for auction on BOB or a Philatelic Auction.

 

Before someone hordes this collection and hides it in a Stamp Cupboard somewhere I want to ensure that it gets seen and is known about.

 

I can take some photo's of the exhibit and mail them to you if you would like? :)

 

I'd love that, thanks. Will pm my email address to you.

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lilythepink

With regard to moppies comments, I believe that letters which were copied to everyone and intended for publication in the press are legal for sale now. It would just be the "classified" correspondence which might cause today's equivalent of the security police/big brother to come knocking at one's door!

 

But imagine what a can of worms could be opened if Wikileaks got into the systems ...?

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