Numismatics Q&A - Hosted by AlJaDa

[admin 8]

indran, per quanto tempo fino al lancio del sito web CoinGuide?

[ALJADA 10]

Wow Italian speaking numismatists and administrators!! Che bella cosa la lingua Italiana. Grazie a voi Indran!! Admin, Il website sara pronto fra un paio di settimane. Alex

[admin 8]

Thank you Alex, la donna è più bella della lingua.

 

Good luck.

[ALJADA 10]

Questo e vero Viva la FI@#!!!

[admin 8]

They are, pity I am too old now to try and get one....

[ALJADA 10]

No such thing as too old!! Maybe just too tired to endure the pain & suffering required to get to the treasure!

 

[coinoisseur 11]

What coin and grade are you guys talking about ??? :confused:

My ITALIAN is like my GREEK

[admin 8]

Hi Coinoissuer,

 

Not about coins, I am afraid we went a bit off topic.

 

Regards

 

Andries

[coinoisseur 11]

I know....... I was kidding

 

 

 

[Khal139 10]

NGC Grading

 

Hi Alex

 

Thanks for the Great contribution and effort that you put in, which i have no doubt will go a long way helping us Novices

:confused:Kindly advise how any of the Mint Encapsulated coins that we purchase from SAM can be graded PF69 or below by NGC . I would have thought that they should all be graded PF 70 subject to the coin not being tampered with.

 

Thanks again

[EishGK 10]

I agree Khal. I have some American Pr70 coins in my collection and for the life of me, I simply cannot fathom the lowly graded SA Coins. Some of the lowly graded SA coins compare very favourably if not better than the American Pr70 coins. Even when you compare a Pr70 SA coin to lower graded SA coin of the same type, I am simply dumbstruck that there is no difference. I am starting to believe that NGC and PCGS are doing SA coins a dis-service. Contraversial, but it may be possible!

I further believe that we need to give more support and credibility to local graders because surely they will be more versed on the minting properties of coins struck by the SA mint. I have definately noted grading disparities in a few Union and ZAR coins slabbed in NGC and PCGS holders. Not to mention the blatant mistakes made in the discription of the coins graded. I have a Single Shaft pond graded by NGC which was labeled as a Double Shaft. It would be nice to hear comments by senior numismatists on supporting local graders and steering these graders towards international recognition.:cool:

 

Hassim;)

[jwither 17]

NGC and PCGS handle hundreds of thousands of coins a year, so it is only to be expected that there will be some administrative errors. Those who expect perfection are not being reasonable.

 

As for the grades, I do not know what to tell you. They may be wrong but I find it unlikely that its costing anyone any money worth mentioning. The reason for this is simple. If the grades are for example, proof 67 instead of proof 69, then there would simply be X number in the higher grade instead of the lower grade. These coins would still be common either way.

 

I have had a few instances where NGC annoyed me with thier grading. I have had a few coins prior to the NGC "details" grading rejected that were later graded. So I wasted the grading fee. Its just the way it is.

 

As for supporting local grading companies, it is going to take local South Africa collectors to do that. The barriers to market acceptability for foreign collectors such as myself are daunting. I would not pay an equivalent price for the same quality coin if it was a locally graded one as I would for NGC and PCGS because the marketability is lower. And I have never seen one for sale either outside of BOB. And if I did own one that was worth any mentionable money, I would send it in to NCG for a crossover.

[ZARBOY 10]

Hi

 

I have just had my last batch of coins graded with NGC. I gave up on PCGS some time ago. My coins arrived at NGC on the 25th of February. By end March 6 of the 8 invoices was finished graded. On the 22nd of April invoice 7 got completed. Fighting for results on invoice 8, I received them yesterday.

 

After a few emails I was told by Sarah Marich, NGC Customer Consultant, that one of my coins was damaged. They could not tell me if this happened in NCS or while grading, encapsulating at NGC. They have agreed to refund me the insured value of the coin.

 

Considering all the above problems and few small things that have happened in the past, I decided this was my last coins sent for grading. It takes forever, it's expensive, troubles with Customs when the coins arrive back.

 

Hopefully the SACGS can stand up to it's words. Have spoken to them regarding the grading of ZAR Coins. My first batch will be going to them middle May. Hopefully by end May we would see the results.

 

Will keep you all informed. Would like to see how the market accepts these coins. I think SACGS has a lot of pressure on them. Grade a coin to high - it will impact negatively. Grade a coin to low - it will still impact negatively. Now, knowin that grading is an art, small differences will always be there.

 

I believe at least we all should give SACGS a chance. We always complain about how dificult it is grading coins in the States and how expensive. Let's give a local company the chance and support it as far as possible.

 

Regards

[ECONOZONE 10]

I have sent a few coins to SACGS and find the grading to be a little stricter than NGC.As you say they are under a lot of pressure to perform.They have also had a few teething problems with inserts ect but this happens in any new business.If they get there turnaround times on track then I think they will get a lot of loyal customers.Not having to deal with customs is a huge bonus,some of them treat you as if you are a crook.I also sent coins to PCGS but this takes longer and doesn't get past the customs problem,I like the PCGS holdes the best.They dont scratch like the NGC ones.My 2c.

[ALJADA 10]

Hi Alex

 

Thanks for the Great contribution and effort that you put in, which i have no doubt will go a long way helping us Novices

:confused:Kindly advise how any of the Mint Encapsulated coins that we purchase from SAM can be graded PF69 or below by NGC . I would have thought that they should all be graded PF 70 subject to the coin not being tampered with.

 

Thanks again

 

Hi Khal139,

 

Thank you for your kind words, they are well appreciated.

 

In so far as your question is concerned, the mere fact that proof coins are minted in a very controlled manner does not ensure that each coin that is produced is exactly the same. Furthermore each coin has to go from the minting press into a capsule by hand, which presents a plethora of possibilities some of which are as follows:

 

- The time of day when the coin was minted ie. early morning as opposed to midday. The production rooms are not, to my knowledge, temperature controlled so the air at any given time could affect the surface of the coin albeit negligible. The difference between a PF69 & a PF70 is so negligible most graders would have difficulty in noticing the difference under 20x magnification.

- The handling of proof coins is with the use of cotton gloves but it does not ensure that each coin is handled exactly the same way.

- Our breath alone can damage the surface of such coins due to the presence of moisture within our breath. One encounters coins with little brown or black spots on the surfaces which is usually the result of someone getting to close to the coin and depositing moisture on the coin which reacts quickly with the metal and results in spots.

- The most important factors though are in the minting process itself. Factors such as minting pressure, die erosion & die polishing all have an affect on the coins minted. Whilst to the untrained eye each of these proof coins may look 100% alike, they certainly do not look so under 20x magnification and it is here where the distinct grades differ because technically speaking a PF70 is a perfect coin from all aspects and a perfect coin with even the slightest blemish is a PF69. The same applies to the strike aspect in that a PF70 is perfectly struck whereas a PF69 may be slightly weaker in strike in a part of the coin that is less than 1/10th of a mm in diameter.

 

Having said this though I have yet to see a PF70 that is PF70 from my viewpoint so I guess one has to call into question the grading abilities of graders or the grading standards of the grading companies. I have not, as yet, seen any SACGS certified specimens so I cannot comment on their grading, but I can comment on the NGC & PCGS as at least 4,000 coins collectively from these companies have passed through my hands. So far the PCGS is in my opinion far superior to the NGC in all aspects regarding the certification of our (SA) coins. The PCGS is far more consistent with grades given, their slabs are of superior quality and design, the coins they reject are consistent with others they reject and resubmitting coins very seldom results in massively differing grades. Their knowledge on our coins is superior and they are far more aware of the nuances that exist for our older coins in terms of strikes, dies etc. Be that as it may, the NGC has graded far more of our coins but this is simply because of economics and time. The PCGS are on the west coast of the USA, they take almost 3 times as long to process coins & they are slightly more expensive so the NGC is the obvious choice given that they are just as widely accepted as the PCGS. The number of SA coins the NGC has graded as opposed to the PCGS does not mean they are of the same calibre as the PCGS and personally I want the best for my coins so I choose PCGS. I am not saying that the NGC are to be viewed as incapable of grading our coins because they are very good at it but they are not as good at it as the PCGS!

 

Cheers

Alex

[ALJADA 10]

Hi

 

I have just had my last batch of coins graded with NGC. I gave up on PCGS some time ago. My coins arrived at NGC on the 25th of February. By end March 6 of the 8 invoices was finished graded. On the 22nd of April invoice 7 got completed. Fighting for results on invoice 8, I received them yesterday.

 

After a few emails I was told by Sarah Marich, NGC Customer Consultant, that one of my coins was damaged. They could not tell me if this happened in NCS or while grading, encapsulating at NGC. They have agreed to refund me the insured value of the coin.

 

Considering all the above problems and few small things that have happened in the past, I decided this was my last coins sent for grading. It takes forever, it's expensive, troubles with Customs when the coins arrive back.

 

Hopefully the SACGS can stand up to it's words. Have spoken to them regarding the grading of ZAR Coins. My first batch will be going to them middle May. Hopefully by end May we would see the results.

 

Will keep you all informed. Would like to see how the market accepts these coins. I think SACGS has a lot of pressure on them. Grade a coin to high - it will impact negatively. Grade a coin to low - it will still impact negatively. Now, knowin that grading is an art, small differences will always be there.

 

I believe at least we all should give SACGS a chance. We always complain about how dificult it is grading coins in the States and how expensive. Let's give a local company the chance and support it as far as possible.

 

Regards

 

Hello ZARBOY,

 

Whilst I agree with you in terms of supporting a local company for the certification of our coins there are numerous problems with this ideal. The most important being the difficulty in gaining international recognition because without this the coins slabbed by such company will never attain the market prices attained by coins certified by recognized companies and this ultimately will be its downfall. International recognition would be a tall order for any one wishing to take this concept up. I attempted to start such a company 4 years ago, I had the plastic injection mould for the slabs ready plus all the trimmings for a secure slab, all of which cost me a heap of money but the main ingredient was official recognition by the community peers namely the numismatic societies, the dealers society, dealers and known collectors. To cut a miserably long story short my plan was thwarted long before I could even contemplate offering my services to the coin public and whilst I expended a small fortune I knew it best to cut my losses. My attitude towards the entire business of coins changed right at that point and I decided to concentrate on doing something else for the community and soon you shall all see it for yourselves. My point her is that without the acceptance & backing of each and everyone I have listed above such an endeavour will never begin the process of attaining international recognition and as such will be more of a diservice to SA collectors than the diservice currently being experienced by many of us with the USA companies. I would support any endeavour to offer such a service locally provided it covered the criteria required for such & not excluding the above point. Some of the criteria would be:

 

- Official grading standard of such company issued in the form of a booklet to members.

- Secure premises for the storage of coins.

- Recognised graders with at least 7 years experience grading.

- Solid & secure slabs with security features preventing any counterfeiting.

- Insurance cover in the event of any mishaps to clients coins whilst with the company.

- National recognition by all recognised associations & societies involved in coins.

- Guarantee policy regarding coins certified by the company.

 

This would ensure that all collectors/investors could be comfortable submitting their coins for certification and knowing that such coins would be in a position to compete with other coins graded elsewhere for the market share on such coins.

 

On another point & please lets be clear on this issue,grading is not an art. Art is something that one creates for the betterment, pleasure and good fortune of society. The grading of coins can never do this because it is a science albeit an imperfect science it is a science nonetheless. The creation of a coin is an art and one cannot confuse this as being part of the grading of a coin. Grading is only an imperfect science due to the inclusion of the grading factor known as 'EYE APPEAL' by the third party grading houses. Eye appeal is very subjective because each and every person who collects coins has a different opinion as to what is beautiful and what is not beautiful. This means that from a grading point of view if a coin is graded by three graders who all like toned coins then if your coin is untoned and as struck it will grade lower than one that is toned and as struck but as far as the balance of factors regarding grades there is nothing unscientific about it.

 

Strike - refers to the level of detail on the coin in comparison to the design itself. Not to be confused with wear because wear is another part of grading not applicable here. There is no way to quantify the level of strike but one can easily see a coin that is fully struck to one that is not.

 

Lustre - refers to the original glowing effect seen on coins when they are held in light and rotated. The level of lustre also cannot be quantified but is very easily compared between coins.

 

Surface Preservation - refers to the surfaces on each side of the coin in terms of contact marks & hairlines seen on such surfaces. The quantity of these to factors in conjunction with where they appear specifically on a coin determines the level of surface preservation and it can be quantified to a degree. It is also the single most important factor with regard to the grade given for mint state coins. It is so important it counts double compared to the other three factors.

 

I cannot draw, dance, sculpt or paint anything of worth to society but I sure as hell can grade coins! Please do not call me an artist because I am nothing of the sort.

 

Cheers

Alex

[jwither 17]

Though I send my coins to NGC for grading, I agree with Alex that the SA coins in PCGS holders are generally of better quality given the same grade. They just look better and no, its not just because of the holder though theirs is nicer. I do not know the answer to this question but it seems to be invariably true.

 

As to why they take longer to grade, my understanding (unconfirmed) is that they either do not have any graders of non-US coins on site or fewer of them. If this is correct, posisbly they have dealers or other prominent numismatists under contract for different specialties. One such dealer is one I buy fom occasionally I believe.

 

In terms of market acceptance, if any collectors want to use any local SA grading company, I will be happy to buy their quality coins in the open market for a discount to an NGC or PCGS coin in the same grade. That is presumably the opinion of most SA collectors who live outside of SA and why I see this concept going nowhere, at least for the more expensive coins.

 

Canada and the UK have at least one TPG service but each of those markets are large enough where possibly there are or will be enough local collectors to support them. I do not see that for SA coins any time soon if at all.

 

In Canada, the ICSS is eatablished and it is respected by at least Canadian and US collectors of Canadian coinage. In the UK, there is one service (CGS) but I have only seen one dealer who regularly offers coins in those holders. I have not researched the relative prices between either of those services and NGC/PCGS, though to my knowledge, ICSS coins bring comporable prices.

[inveco 10]

Hi I have been to the states recently. What I decided to do is go around and visit some coin shopps. To my suprise I only saw 2 grading companies being used and that was of NGC and PCGS for grading of coins.

 

If (SACGS) grades coins of South Africa I do hope he is not a collector. Why I do say this is a very simple reason.

 

CONFLICT OF INTREST!:mad:

 

 

Just my point of view

[admin 8]

Hi All,

 

Please note that SACGS is unable to reply to posts about them on the Forum, so please refrain from posting about them.

 

Thank you for your understanding in this matter.

[Bellcoin 10]

Interesting!

 

I have been collecting ZAR coins for about 2 years now - and have tons still to learn, but have to agree with Aljada and Jwither regarding PCGS.

 

I have zar coins graded by both NGC and PCGS and with out a doubt the PCGS coins of equal grade are the better coins. They just seem to have a touch more detail and I sometimes get the feeling that they would grade higher at NGC. I have yet to see a "shocker" from PCGS. I have seen plenty from NGC. I have a MS64RB 1898 penny - I am no grader but MS! and RB no way on planet earth or 1898 unc details - oh please show me the hair lines, under 200x magnification there is stuff all hairlines. Which or course leads the the BIG problem - an example I bought the slab (ms64RB) I know what the coin is and is not - ????? mmmmmmm

 

I do not mind the wait - can anyone help with sending coins to PCGS?

And thanks for for the time and info you guys put into this addicting hobby.

[EishGK 10]

Silver 'SCALE' on 1966 R1 - Opinion Please

 

I recently found this R1 on which the silver seems scaling away. The coin have been knocked around but the phenonomenon is bit unnatural, especially around the mouth of the springbok. If it were dented then an impression would of been noticable but around the mouth the section is raised as if it were struck with a die which has a piece chipeed away. Not sure if this is possible. The body shows a piece that has possibly lifted away completely. A sacle also seems to be evident above the '1' in R1. The scaling is onlu seen on the reverse. The obverse is clear of such 'defects'. Could this of been a defective planchet with the efeects only showing through now? These are the best pics I could take of the coin. Your opinion is most apreciated.

 

 

 

Regards - Hassim

[kimsantics 10]

Hi there coins are very new to me but have bought a few collections and need to learn about what I have, also how do i go about having coins graded?

[nine974 10]

circulation coins

 

Hello ALJADA

I have one question :Do you know if the circulations coins with rotation legend are minted for 2009 and 2009 (5 cents to 5 rands) . I ask because i collect coins from South Africa and i live on Reunion island . Is not possble to know . I have sended many mails at SAMINT and i have not reply

Best regards Gerard

[ALJADA 10]

I recently found this R1 on which the silver seems scaling away. The coin have been knocked around but the phenonomenon is bit unnatural, especially around the mouth of the springbok. If it were dented then an impression would of been noticable but around the mouth the section is raised as if it were struck with a die which has a piece chipeed away. Not sure if this is possible. The body shows a piece that has possibly lifted away completely. A sacle also seems to be evident above the '1' in R1. The scaling is onlu seen on the reverse. The obverse is clear of such 'defects'. Could this of been a defective planchet with the efeects only showing through now? These are the best pics I could take of the coin. Your opinion is most apreciated.

 

 

 

Regards - Hassim

 

Hello Hassim,

 

The coin you have posted exhibits characteristics known as 'Rolled in metal' and it is a planchet or blank error. The way this happens is when the mints are manufacturing blanks part of the process is to take a the particular metal they wish to blank and put it through an extensive series of rollers which produce a sheet of the metal at a desired thickness. Then a series of punches punch out blanks from the sheet. During the rolling process it can occur that shavings of the metal or small pieces of the metal land on the sheet as it is being rolled and as such they are rolled into the sheet which if then punched out as a blank results in the blank having this piece rolled into it. If undetected it is then pressed into a coin and voils we have a coin such as yours.

 

Cheers

Alex

[thetopshop 10]

Prooflike ???? or not ????

 

 

Hi...My first post.

I found this amongst my others and it seems a little different. I looked it up in herns and noticed that no proof coins where minted in this year but prooflike are available at a very reasonable price. So herewith starts my curiosity....Please can someone assist me? I am new to collecting and my knowledge is limited but have a keen interest in nusimatics.

Would this coin pass as a Prooflike? It has frosting but only on the head.

Thank you

Warren