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ALJADA

Numismatics Q&A - Hosted by AlJaDa

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ALJADA

Hi,

 

The 70 point grading system does not provide for the different strike characteristics found in coins nor does it provide for the different colour surface characteristics found in copper coinage, therefore these nuances require a code or name to distinguish them from other coins of the same grade but not the same strike or colour characteristics.

 

Ultimately a coin such as a 1892 PENNY MS65RB will have a higher value attached to it than a 1892 PENNY MS65BN and so it follows that a coin such as a 1944 2S PF65CA will also have a higher value attached to it than a 1944 2S PF65 & if a 1944 2S PF65UC existed it would have a higher value attached to it than the cameo specimen.

 

The addition of these descriptions or classifications ultimately provide the collectors with a solid idea of the quality of the characteristics of a particular coin not provided for in the 70 point system without having seen the coin first hand.

 

The statistics show that coins that have a cameo or ultra cameo appearance attain up to 50% more than the same coin that does not have such classification. An ultra cameo is far more appealing than one that is not and in order to have been struck with such a characteristic it must have been an almost perfect process from beginning to end.

 

If it were true that a PF is a PF then why would we even have grades from PF60 to PF 70?

 

I have seen a 1892 Pond DS that is worthy of a PF63CA grade and classification and it will soon be submitted for grading so lets wait and see.

 

The NGC has graded millions of coins and they consistently upgrade their knowledge base on coins such as ours in order to grade them correctly. It is futile to even contemplate debating whether or not such descriptions are necessary in view of their massive experience.

 

AlJaDa

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liberty coin

Hi Alex ,

 

As regards POP1 , POP2 , etc ............

 

Please can you post the correct terminology that should be used.

 

I am the seller in question who has been using these terms as i misunderstood........

 

I thought that if a coin was the highest grade then it is POP1 and if it was second highest then it was POP2 and so forth.

 

An explanation will help a lot of people as I am sure there are lots of us who thought the same as I did.

 

GK

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ALJADA

Hi G,

 

You are correct in your understanding of the term POP 1 etc.

 

Strictly speaking the term POP 1 applies to a coin that has attained a higher grade than any other graded specimens in the same year and denomination. Furthermore the third party grading service utilised would have to be a reputable one such as the NGC or PCGS. This term can be confusing since people might assume that it applies to the number of coins in the top population category but it has nothing to do with this. POP 1 specifically indicates the ranking of the coin in the population statistics and is probably an abbreviation of "Population Ranking 1". I personally prefer to use the term "Finest Known" and then state the Population Statistics thereafter. It follows then that POP 2 is the second highest rank and so forth.

Cheers

AlJaDa

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KAIZER SA

hi there,

 

i asked NGC for their definitions and the answer i got back was

>

 

Pop 1 would mean the coin has a population of 1, pop 2 would be a population of 2. These are graded coins of course

<

 

regards

indran

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ALJADA

Indran,

 

The NGC does not have a definition for these abbreviated words. You merely contacted customer care and asked the consultant for his definition of these words. I know Patrick and your question to him actually perplexed him because he states " If I am interpreting your question correctly" then gives his answer.

 

I have every book or journal published by the ANA, NGC, PCGS & the ANA Numismatic Scholar Diploma course as well as Heritage Auctions and many more. Not a single one of these speaks of this term "POP 1" or"POP2". The closest definitions can be found in: the ANA GRADING STANDARDS 6TH EDITION where under the term 'population report' they state :

 

"Slang Pop report" & the PCGS glossary does mention a definition for 'finest known' and I quote: " The best-known condition example of a particular numismatic item.". Then there is 'TOP POP' from the same glossary and I quote: "A coin that is on top of the Population Report and scores the maximum number of points on the PCGS Set Registry.". Thats it, I can find nothing else.

 

Your post seeks to confuse everyone even further so I have prepared the following explanation and advice:

 

- The correct way to describe a particular coins' status according to the population reports offered by the NGC & PCGS is as follows: Assuming a coin being graded MS66 with no coins graded higher but with 5 graded the same.

 

Population: 5 in 66, none finer

or

PCGS Population (3/0). NGC Census: (2/0)

or

Either of the above with a notation stating that the coin is a finest known example.

 

Strictly speaking the NGC does not even call its report a Population Report. The name given to their report is "CENSUS".

 

The meaning of the slang term 'POP 1' can be found in the context with which it is used. When someone speaks of a POP 1 they are refering to the fact that it is ranked number one in its specific year and denomination. If we were to use it in the context you have stated in your post, how would you describe a coin that is graded higher than all its counterparts but it also has 8 specimens graded exactly the same as itself and there are 25 coins graded in total?

 

POP1POP8POP25 or POP25POP8POP1?

 

POP YOU IN THE HEAD!(just kidding). Seriously though one could write 1/8/25 and it would make sense but add the POP and everyone POPS!

 

I would suggest that in describing a coins population ranking we should stick to the most widely used and accepted formats as stated above but if one insists using the POP 1 format then everyone should remember that it is an abbreviation of Population Ranking: 1 This POP business IS MAKING ME DIZZY! Goodnight!

DaAlJa

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KAIZER SA

Hello POPS,

 

Agreed, stick to standard descriptions and avoidance of slangs dispels confusion.

 

Alex, something so co-incidental just happened..buyer sent me an email.

in the body of the message was >Please find attached the POP ka-ching!

 

Cheers my friend.

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kritzingerf

Hi Alwx, Thanx for clarifying this!

 

Can anybody please help me out here.... Up until now, I thought a pop report was a breakdown of the population of a graded coin.

 

So if a proof 70 coin has a pop2, I understood it to indicate that there are 2 coins with a proof 70 grading in that ompany's register. Similrly a pop 12 for a pf65 means 12 pf65 coins on record....

 

However, I notices oe or 2 sellers stating a coin with pf70UC grading, ie, best grade possible, s a pop 1....

 

please guide/advise/clarify for me.

 

After reading your post, I apologize to 'Liberty Coin', 'Select_a_Coin' and 'ZARCOIN' for my misunderstanding of their listings, as clearly his usage of the slang term 'POP1' was indeed correct.

 

In justification, I was one of the misguided people, understanding POP1 meaning POPULATION 1 in that grade. I guess using any slang always leaves gaps for unintended interpretations.

 

Thanks

Francois

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Vertigo

Hi,

 

I have heard that there are 4-5 variety's with regard to the steps of the Union Buildings on the 1994 Presidential Inauguration coin.

 

Could you kindly shed some light on this topic ?

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KAIZER SA

pboss,

 

knowing alex,you are going to make this wonderful man work now!

 

we are constantly rewarded with his research,

 

which sometimes passes by UNappreciated in light of the time and dedication spent on works.

 

know well,that you are appreciated.,

 

regards

indran

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Vertigo

indran, I have seen a few of your ad's and maybe you could upload some pictures of the various steps variety as a token of appreciation towards Alex's research :)

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ALJADA

1994 Presidential Inauguration R5 Varieties

 

Hello pboss & Indran,

 

Thank you very much for the supportive comments and appreciation of my work. Indran you are one of my longest serving supporters and I do hope you also know that I appreciate this!

 

The 1994 R5 Presidential Inauguration coin could very well exist in several more "steps" varieties than the 4 or 5 that you mention. In my opinion these varieties could be classified as die varieties or perhaps errors too. In the case of the mint state or business strikes coins I believe both these classifications could apply whereas in proof strikings the evidence suggests that these strikings fall under the variety classification. In order to be classified as a variety such differing design element on the coins must occur on more than one coin and such design element must be 100% exactly the same as all the other coins of that particular variety.

 

One will immediately notice that the design of the steps are very small in size and have the lowest relief in comparison to the rest of the design elements. On all the proof specimens I have inspected containing one of these varieties, there is no indication or evidence of weak strikings which immediately indicates that it is possible that different dies were used in order to mint the coins. With closer inspection I was able to establish that the proof coins show no signs of rough surfaces where the steps ought to be, which further indicates that these differences are attributable to the dies utilised.

 

More on this to follow tonight.

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ALJADA

Back to the 1931 Penny variety

 

The reason I cut my previous post short is it just struck me how the variety found on the 1931 penny discussed in an earlier post was created! The specimen is probably the only one I have seen to date that clearly shows its variety creation!!

 

The variety is undoubtedly caused by die clashing which means that this is better classified as an error coin not a variety. The occurence of this error/variety in other years as stated in my previous post is therefore not necessarily due to the same die being utilised but rather that die clashing occured in all of these years. It is more probable that this is the reason for such error/variety existing although the possibility that the same die was used cannot be ruled out because the clashing may have occured in a particular year and such die(s) were utilised in subsequent years.

 

The following pictures have reverses superimposed on the obverse and also reverses in mirror image in order to help understand what occured:

 

 

 

357741_1931_1d_rev.jpg

 

357741_1931_1d_rev_full.jpg

 

357741_1931_flipped_red.jpg

 

357741_1931_1d_obv_full_red_rings.jpg

 

357741_1931_aii_sp_red_rings.jpg

 

357741_1931_aii_sp.jpg

 

Any recessed design element on the reverse die will create a incuse design in mirror image on the obverse of the coin after die clashing. Any raised design element on the reverse die will create a raised design element on the obverse of the coin after die clashing.

I could never figure out how these crescent shapes were made so raised on the obverse and it struck me tonight that the areas in between the upper sails and the lower sails were crescent shaped and on the reverse dies this small area would be a high raised design element which would show itself in this form after die clashing. Amazing and another variety mystery solved!!! What gave it away was the small area showing the incuse design of the lower bunched up sail just underneath GEOV's ear. This was never seen by myself on other specimens because they were never as clearly struck as this coin. The die clashing must have been at full force to have created such heavy detail!

 

357741_geov_close_up_1931_vam.jpg

 

@#$%^ I'm good!!

AlJaDa

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coinoisseur

You are Brucken Filliant ....................... Wow

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ALJADA

Thank you sir!

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ALJADA

Billibo

 

I have found it very difficult to express the sense of loss I feel after hearing of Bill's passing. I often communicated with him and he was instrumental in the creation of my first sticky "Coins 101". His guidance and help often kept me out of trouble and kept the sticky running for as long as it ran. To date no topic has come close with the number of hits the sticky received. This is testament to the help and guidance I received from from Bill. We decided together to remove it and start the new one as you see here. We were supposed to meet for coffee a million times and sadly never did. I am very sorry I never made the time to meet him and I guess this is a pain I shall carry with me every time I think of him, which will be every time I write something in this sticky. I have learnt one last lesson from this fine gentleman and that is to never take friendships lightly and to always make the effort to meet in person. My deepest condolences to his family.

 

To you Bill:

We shall meet for real my friend

And until then,

May the road rise up to meet you

May the wind be ever at your back

May the sunshine warm upon your face

May the rain fall soft upon your heels

Arrivederci

 

Alex

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Guest

Hi Alex,

I had the Honour of spending some time with Bill.

I can share with you His excitement with the coin forum, and the fact that you made a return.

He were also very exited about your new sticky.

He believed the Coin forum to be the Hottest Forum alive with action...

A Forum which he described as ,

a place where I Need to keep my eyes open, No question that it will happen , just when..the When is just about always.

 

He described and exclaimed your contribution to the coin forum as

"a Huge success" Making the coin Forum the best forum on BoB.

 

He contributed the success of the coin forum to Guys like you, and very much in specific you.

As serious as he were, he could with all his serious administration NOT resist to post his jokes under the joke section. :)

 

Alex, he had been a great person, and he could not stop talking coins and could not stop mentioning your brilliance.

 

He had a lot of respect and admiration for what you have and are doing, I have no reason to doubt it were mutual.

 

It had been the most difficult thing to do to inform others of his loss, Personally I am still lost for words, as I admired and respected Bill.

 

He had the ability to treat all with respect, whether you are right or wrong.

He made us all feel special.

The loss is huge.

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Pilgrims Rest

Hi Alex...

 

I never took the time to thank you for your remarkable answers and explinations regarding the 1931 KGV Penny, and for that i do aplogize...

 

Thank you very much !! I am astoned by your knowlege of South african coins and may go from strengh to strengh with the talent that the Big Man has given U....

 

Kinest Regards

Zululand Coins

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ALJADA

Herman,

 

Thank you for your post, it has made me feel a lot better than I felt the last few days. Your words are very appropriate "The loss is huge" and I will strive to keep my sticky running in honour of this fine gentleman!

 

Thank you.

Alex

 

To Zululand Coins,

 

Thank you for your kind words of praise and support, it certainly helps me keep going especially in uncomfortable times.

 

Cheers

Alex

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SILVERRHINO

My opinion : Value in the collectable sense - must be relative

 

I would like to refer back to the earlier posts,

Thanks for the postings ALJADA,

I am astounded at how little I know & I am humbled by you sharing this knowledge.

 

Where to start ,to start digging deeper,I have referenced often enough & can appreciate the application needed to venture into the creation of new knowledge.

Where does one start in the way of tools, once a particular area of study

has been chosen?

What are the basic tools needed & what is the method applied.

If there is a method?I may be a bit haphazard if driven only by passion.

Thanks

Dax

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SILVERRHINO

SORRY FOR YOUR LOSS

 

Sorry for your loss, I have posted with your sentiment to honor your freind in mind.

Thanks

Dax

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ALJADA
http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/8848950/Old_Chinese_Dragon_Phoenix_Ancient_Coin.html

 

 

can someone tell me if these are genuine? , I know they are not rare, because I see hundreds of them lying around in junk shops here in Thailand

 

 

are they worth anything? in the collectible sense?

 

regards Jeff.

 

Hi Jeff,

 

Whilst my Chinese needs some practice I can say that the only thing this particular 'coin' has in common with the genuine Chinese Empire coinage denominated as 'Cash' is the fact that it is a cast item instead of being hammered or milled. The genuine coins never depicted any designs of a dragon or phoenix only Chinese script. I am no expert in the coins from this empire but after perusing 1000 + of these coins in my research files and books spanning 400 years I could not find this 'coin' nor anything remotely similar.

 

More importantly I think you answered your own question in terms of worth when you state "I see hundreds of them lying around in junk shops here in Thailand". How could anything found in abundance in a junk shop be worth anything?

 

Cheers

AlJaDa

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motherearth

I was just curious and guess i already new the answer, just also noticed that the seller is getting $30-$50 a pop for them, i have only ever seen them in the Chinatown area of Bangkok and they could be probably purchased for around $0.50 each if bought in quantity

 

anyway, I won't waste any more of your time, thanks for the info

 

regards Jeff

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Guest

Hi Guys, just to clear it up.

 

The "Coin" you refer to are a lucky charm, and not a coin. They are made for the superstitious Chinese.

 

The Dragon is part of the Chinese Zodiac and hence the term "lucky coin"

 

A Quote from one of their descriptions.

 

Zodiac Coin Lucky Charm

Beautiful large coin charm in the auspicious red silk string ending in double tassels with intricate Longevity Knot above and below the charm for good health and long life! The Zodiac center has 12 Zodiac coins around a large Chinese coin with Feng Shui symbols of peace, harmony and abundance. Ideal for bringing blessing, good fortune, prosperity and auspicious energies into the home or office.

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ALJADA
I was just curious and guess i already new the answer, just also noticed that the seller is getting $30-$50 a pop for them, i have only ever seen them in the Chinatown area of Bangkok and they could be probably purchased for around $0.50 each if bought in quantity

 

anyway, I won't waste any more of your time, thanks for the info

 

regards Jeff

 

You did not waste my time. I try answer all questions to the best of my ability. The main focus of this sticky is to answer questions on South African coinage but wherever possible I answer questions related to other foreign coinage as well.

 

Herman, I am well aware of what the item is but I also try and explain how I come to my conclusions as opposed to merely stating what a particular item is.

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