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ALJADA

Numismatics Q&A - Hosted by AlJaDa

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ALJADA

Hi fellow numismatists, collectors & friends.

 

I have requested the opportunity to host another sticky in the BOB forum in which I will answer any numismatic related questions to the best of my ability or if need be I shall consult with other numismatists whom I feel would be best suited to answering a specific question. I will also post general numismatic advice on subjects ranging from cleaning coins, grading, Internet buying and so forth. I will also post information related to my research and the results thereof. This sticky has kindly been granted to me by the forum administrator whom I wish to thank for such. In view of the often-controversial issues that can arise in numismatics I have set up the following guidelines for any posts within this sticky:

 

1) The only issues or subjects discussed herein shall be of a numismatic nature no exceptions.

2) Any inflammatory posts directed at anyone on a personal level shall be ignored and taken up with the administrator for deletion.

3) Any posts written in disagreement with any advice or replies posted by myself must have substance and be of an intelligent nature. In other words back up any statements with proven fact(s).

4) Whilst I may have the answer to many questions immediately there are many more I do not have the answer to immediately so please be patient should a question take some time to reply to.

5) I have chosen to offer this sticky for the benefit of all concerned and I take it very seriously. Please do the same.

 

With the above out the way I shall start by posting some coins that remind me why I love numismatics as much as I do! Thereafter you may ask away.

Cheers

AlJaDa

 

35768_smlhead.jpg I was told there is no springbok variety in the One Rand Silver series???

 

 

3571950_1P.jpg Detail!!!

357coins_9_aug_003.jpg Found in a proof set!! BUNC & Rrare!

357coinssept11_055.jpg Found 2 at a coin show at 20% of catalogue! BUNC & Rrare!

3571932_3d_varieties.jpg I was told that there are no varieties in the GEOV 3d series???

3571930_3d_varieties.jpg Ditto!!

3571936_hc_ms62_obv.jpg Stunning coin & one of my first GEOV acquisitions.

357416391_1930_hc_ef.jpg Everyone missed this MS63 or perhaps better we shall see!!

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coinoisseur

Alex

 

This is a brilliant idea. Hopefully from this sticky we will all be able to gain more knowledge and learn new things and discover exciting new numismatic discoveries....... With a person with your numismatic knowledge, this can only grow from strength to strength.

 

Well done on taking this upon yourself to start this.

 

 

Cheers

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AGV Gems

Alax

 

Great idea!

 

I have a question on cleaning coins:

 

I have a metal detector and have found numerous old penny's tickey's and lots more.

 

I have found a 1961 1c. It seems that some or the other plant really liked this one. There are very small routs attached to this coin which I was unable to remove. I do not want to damage this coin and would like to know if you have any suggestions on how to clean this?

 

Also some general tips on cleaning coins that has been underground for some time will be appreciated.

 

Andries

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farah786

Great stuff Alex,

 

I need your help with a few items ,just getting them out and scanned for

queries.

 

Will post shortly.

 

Thanks for sharing your expertise,and hope to learn much more from your posts.

 

Regards

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ALJADA

To: AVG Gems

Hi Andries,

 

I find the concept of metal detecting for coins truly exciting and have plans to start this hobby myself when I have the time.

 

The method most commonly utilised by metal detecting coin hunters to remove surface dirt that has been accumulating on coins underground is by ultrasonic cleaning. There are various industrial and home type ultrasonic machines which could do the job. I use a home jewellery type machine which seems to work okay. Unfortunately coins which are modern era coins such as the 1961 1c you speak of will not be of any worth in the current condition you speak of nor will such a coin benefit from any type of restoration method since it is quite readily available in high grades. The restoration of coins found underground is usually only acceptable for ancient coins so any modern type coinage would perhaps only serve to give one some practice in restoration.

 

There are countless websites on the internet which give different methods for the restoration of coins found underground but ultrasonic is by far the best and safest. I have a coin which as yet is not in a condition that I can identify it but I have been able to remove enough dirt to see the date as being 1644 and that it is of Dutch origin. This was done with ultrasonic cleaning. The trick is the liquid utilised in the machine and I can tell you that I use a mixture of distilled water and MS70 acquired from the USA. 1 part MS70 to 5 distilled water.

 

Please note that any corrosion damage a coin has suffered is permanent if it has eaten away at the surface of a coin.

 

Thank you for your question.

Cheers

AlJaDa

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AGV Gems

Hi AlJaDa,

 

Thanks for the advice. Now I just need to find a ultrasonic cleaner.

 

The oldest coin I found so far with the MD is a 1935 penny. I have found well over a hundred coins with the MD in the first two months. Truly exciting!!

 

Thanks again!

 

Andries

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ALJADA

The following was posted in another topic in this forum and I felt it pertinent to add it here.

 

I have prepared the following list as a basic explanation on the various MS grades. One must remember that in professional grading there are certain nuances that cannot be excluded but I will not explain them here yet save to give an example. All gold coins are allowed several more contact marks or hairlines in a specific grade as opposed to silver, copper or nickel coinage. So one may find that a gold coin graded MS64 will exhibit more noticeable detracting marks than a silver coin in MS64. The reasoning behind this is that gold is a softer metal and given the same knocks bumps in a bag as a coin composed of harder metal, it would exhibit more marks than the other coin so therefore they should grade equally.

 

MS70 - PERFECT COIN; No imperfections under 20x magnification; full strike; No minting made imperfections; 100% full dynamic luster; no contact marks or hairlines visible under 20x magnification.

 

MS69 - these coins are coins that exhibit imperfections under magnification higher than 10x; one or 2 imperfections allowed no more; luster and eye appeal must be the same as a MS70

 

MS68 - must appear perfect under 10x magnification with the exception of a nearly imperceptible scratch, nick or flaw in a non-focal area of the coin.

 

MS67 - maximum of 2 imperfections under 5x magnification.

 

MS66 - Intermediate grade where a coin may have MS67 surface preservation but MS65 luster would then qualify for a MS66 grade.

 

MS65 - Minor imperfections under 5x magnification but not more than 5 or 6; Full strike and full luster; overall pleasing appearance.

 

MS64 - Intermediate grade where a coin is decidedly better than a MS63 but not deserving of a MS65 grade; usually a coin that looks like an MS65 until inspected under 5x magnification.

 

MS63 - Noticeable marks without magnification; toning may not be visually appealing; possibly not a full strike.

 

MS62 - Above average mint state example and should have MS63 qualities except to a lesser degree in so far as surface preservation & mint bloom is concerned; abrasions &/or scratches should not overwhelm the grader.

 

MS61 - No wear but scratches, abrasions, and other imperfections are evident; dull lustre and unattractive toning; no obvious scratch or gash making such the focus of the coin.

 

MS60 - No wear but scratches, abrasions, and other imperfections are evident to the naked eye & fairly abundant; dull lustre and unattractive toning; may have one or two major detractions which just fall short of being deemed a damaged nograde.

 

I will discuss the various levels of MS grades in detail during the coming weeks as well as the concept of market grading and how it affects SA coins within the marketplace.

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Pierre_Henri

Metal Detecting

 

I have been the editor of the South African Metal Detecting Magazine "Treasure Talk" for 7 years, so any questions regarding the hobby I will be happy to answer. Aljada, I am not sure how this fits in with your post but good luck with your endeviour.

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ALJADA

Hi Pierre Henri,

 

Thank you for the well wishes. If anyone requires further info on Metal detecting then they could PM you. You could thereafter post such information on the forum. I do not know much about this topic so it would be counter productive to post such within this sticky.

 

Cheers

A

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coinoisseur

Hi Alex

 

Do you know anything about this variety or have you seen one before. Its a 10 Cents with an extra stem.

 

108025_Ten_Cent_1.jpg108025_Ten_Cent_3.jpg

108025_Ten_Cent_2.jpg108025_Ten_Cent_4.jpg

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ALJADA

108025_Ten_Cent_1.jpg

 

108025_Ten_Cent_2.jpg

 

108025_Ten_Cent_3.jpg

 

108025_Ten_Cent_4.jpg

 

I think the sizes should now be okay. Thank you admin.

I will study the pics and get back to you shortly Anthony.

AlJaDa

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ALJADA

Truly a remarkable variety! I have identified 7 areas which need a closer look but unfortunately the size of the picture becomes blurred when I attempt to resize it. You have my email address, could you please send me pictures of the entire coin as well as the comparitive coin in as large a size as you are willing to send. Then just a close up of the area I marked below except slightly lower down. I will then be able to see what possibly occured.

 

What I can tell you is that area 1 is the result of die clashing but as for the rest I am afraid the size of the picture is preventing further analysis.

 

357741_108025_Ten_Cent_marked_numbered1.jpg

Cheers

AlJaDa

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ALJADA

I shall come back to the above variety later on in this sticky.

 

MS Values vs Catalogue Values:

 

By taking the plunge into the third party grading concept SA Numismatics has left the dark ages. No more shall the collectors and investors who buy coins, be duped into buying coins that have been overgraded by some unscrupulous dealer. This is by far the most positive concept to be introduced into numismatics and the fact that the third party grading companies offer guarantees over their grades makes this hobby even more appealing. The American collectors are well educated in all aspects regarding this concept but we are still far behind in most of these aspects. One of the most important of these aspects is the premium structures applicable to the 11 mint state levels that exist and how they are compiled.

 

One of the most controversial issues found in coin collecting is undoubtedly the values attributable to the coins that are being collected. I have found myself in many debates, arguments and heated exchanges concerning this specific issue. I will not be discussing specific values of coins just yet nor will I offer any values for specific coins but I do think it has become necessary to inform collectors of the premium structures and base calculations that should be applied to certified coins in the 11 mint state levels. I have noticed that there is no consistency in the prices being paid for certified SA coins in a specific grade across the entire spectrum of SA coins. Ultimately the market forces will dictate how high values will go for a Pop 1, Finest Known coin but they do not offer a method to calculate the values applicable to mint state coins in grades lower than the afore mentioned Pop 1. This is far more important to most collectors since Pop1 coins are usually few in number and therefore can only be acquired by just as few. The following information is my own interpretation of the premium structures and how one calculates them.

 

A coin that is graded as an MS60, which is the lowest of the mint state or uncirculated grades, is generally valued at the stated current catalogue value for such coin in uncirculated condition. If the market forces do not agree with such catalogue valuation then such forces will dictate such base value. I will assign a value of 1 for this level so as to create ratios to this level as we go up the MS scale. Logically as one goes higher up the MS scale this values shall increase accordingly and exponentially to some degree as the higher grade levels are exponentially more difficult to acquire in most cases. Now I could not thumbsuck the differing ratios applicable to each level and I have not seen any formulae to do this so I turned to the creators and masters of this field, the Americans. I analysed each and every pricing structure I could find that incorporated the 11 MS levels or part thereof. Therafter I calculated the averages over all these structures and utilised such averages as the base ratios for our coinage and the MS levels applicable up to MS66 & I have included the levels leading up to the MS levels from AU50. I have listed them below:

 

All the ratios are formulated aganst the constant of 1 in MS60 grade which as I stated is the catalogue value at the time.

 

AU50 - 0.45

AU55 - 0.55

AU58 - 0.90

MS60 - 1.00

MS61 - 1.10

MS62 - 1.45

MS63 - 2.15

MS64 - 3.75

MS65 - 7.75

MS66 - 17.50

MS67 - At this level the market forces would dictate what ratio would be applicable and it could be anything from 25.00 to 500.00 or more.

 

One must also bear in mind that these ratios are rounded off approximate guideline ratios and can be forced right off the scale by market forces. They do, however, help a great deal in ascertaining what possible maximum values are acceptable. I have found them to be quite accurate on non SA websites & auctions. From this point these ratios are then adjusted according a series of factors which could either increase the ratio or decrease the ratio for a particular level of mint state. These factors are as follows:

 

1) Certified Populations statistics (CPS)

2) Finest Known MS level (PP1L)

3) MS vs non MS population ratio (MSV)

4) Known rarities or scarcities (KRS)

5) Possible future Population analysis (FPA)

 

I will discuss these in detail tomorrow.

AlJaDa

357741_1926_MS62BN_OBVSML.jpg

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rvswartz

Hi Everyone,

 

This is my 1st post in this forum and I have enjoyed reading all your posts.

 

Thanks for initiating this post as it will help us novices a lot when acquiring coins.

 

Looking forward to reading all your posts in the future.

 

Regards

Robert :)

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Little Miss Muffet

Re: Numismatics Q&A - Hosted by AlJaDa

 

Hi fellow numismatists, collectors & friends.

 

I have requested the opportunity to host another sticky in the bidorbuy forum in which I will answer any numismatic related questions to the best of my ability or if need be I shall consult with other numismatists whom I feel would be best suited to answering a specific question. I will also post general numismatic advice on subjects ranging from cleaning coins, grading, Internet buying and so forth. I will also post information related to my research and the results thereof. This sticky has kindly been granted to me by the forum administrator whom I wish to thank for such. In view of the often-controversial issues that can arise in numismatics I have set up the following guidelines for any posts within this sticky:

 

1) The only issues or subjects discussed herein shall be of a numismatic nature no exceptions.

2) Any inflammatory posts directed at anyone on a personal level shall be ignored and taken up with the administrator for deletion.

3) Any posts written in disagreement with any advice or replies posted by myself must have substance and be of an intelligent nature. In other words back up any statements with proven fact(s).

4) Whilst I may have the answer to many questions immediately there are many more I do not have the answer to immediately so please be patient should a question take some time to reply to.

5) I have chosen to offer this sticky for the benefit of all concerned and I take it very seriously. Please do the same.

 

With the above out the way I shall start by posting some coins that remind me why I love numismatics as much as I do! Thereafter you may ask away.

Cheers

AlJaDa

 

35768_smlhead.jpg I was told there is no springbok variety in the One Rand Silver series???

 

 

3571950_1P.jpg Detail!!!

357coins_9_aug_003.jpg Found in a proof set!! BUNC & Rrare!

357coinssept11_055.jpg Found 2 at a coin show at 20% of catalogue! BUNC & Rrare!

3571932_3d_varieties.jpg I was told that there are no varieties in the GEOV 3d series???

3571930_3d_varieties.jpg Ditto!!

3571936_hc_ms62_obv.jpg Stunning coin & one of my first GEOV acquisitions.

357416391_1930_hc_ef.jpg Everyone missed this MS63 or perhaps better we shall see!!

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Little Miss Muffet

I have a gold coloured coin of George 1V 1823 . It is the size of the 2 pound gold 1823 coin. Apparently 1823 2 pound coins were made for circulation.The 2 pound gold coin weighs 11.3 gram. The one I have weighs 7.7.

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ALJADA

Hi toys,

 

I am not a specialist in British coinage so you would have to provide me with more information such as a picture of each side of the coin if your post is requesting an identification?

 

The 1823 two pound gold coin weighs 15.9761 gm & not 11.3 as you state.

 

The 1823 Sovereign weighs 7.9881 gm and is the only other gold coin remotely similar to the 2 pound coin in design but size I am not quite certain. This weight is approximately equal to your coin which suggests that you have a sovereign from 1823.

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Little Miss Muffet

This gold coin is the same size as the 2 pound> The 1823 sovereign is smaller. I can send you photo's if you can give me your e-mail as I dont know how to post photo's on the forum

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Guest jacquesg9292

Hi there,

Thank you for providing this interesting information. A question i would like to ask is what steps to take to grade coins through NGC. What is the fastest/cheapest way to do this? Is there someone in Sa we can send this to that sends it to NGC? Thanx.

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ALJADA

Hi Jacques,

 

I do submissions to the NGC on behalf of certain of my clients but I only handle a few clients at a time as it is not my core business and it is far too time consuming for me. I also only handle specific coinages unless there is a bulk submission required. If you wish to know more please pm me and I can send you more info.

 

On the other hand if you wish to submit on your own then you will find all the relevant info on the NGC website.

 

AlJaDa

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Pilgrims Rest

1931 KGV Penny - Error or Variety

 

Hi Alex,

 

Maybe you can help us on this one - I'm no to sure how to copy a URL...anyway...when you search "1931" you will find a 1931 KGV Penny sold by bargainbin. Is this a error or variety and do you think this coin is gradeable as such?

 

Regards

ZC

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bargainhunter01

Hi Alex, another one, please.

 

NGC has a grade PF XX Ultra Cameo on some coins. Why and what's the difference?

 

Hennie

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ALJADA

Hi Zululand Coins,

 

Thank you for your question. The 1931 Penny you see on auction and as shown below is definitely a variety and I have seen specimens in 1930, 1931, 1932,1933 and 1935 pennies. This suggests that the same obverse die was used in each year but given the total mintage figures for these years it is possible that one of the hubbing dies (which are the dies used to manufacture the production dies) was actually the die that had this variety. It has perplexed me for some time as to what created this variety as well as how it was created.

357741_357741_312021_1931-Penny-Head.jpg

If you look carefully you will notice that the extruded piece actually ends just after KGV moustache and looks almost like a crescent shape if you extrapolate the parts that are missing. Furthermore one can see this same sort of shape higher up in front of KGV eyebrow. From this evidence which is not always so clear on other specimens, I have made the assumption that at some or other point there was either severe die clashing or when the hubbing dies were made there was a die that was first hubbed with a reverse hub then the obverse was hubbed over it. I say this because it seems that these shapes are a result of either the front part of the hull of the ship, the corner ends of the sails or the water below the ship at the ends or a combination of these. Then again I could be completely off the mark but this is the most probable reason for the variety.

 

357741_312021_1931-Penny-Tailsd.jpg

 

I have marked the possible areas in red above.

 

Cheers

AlJaDa

[/i]

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ALJADA
Hi Alex, another one, please.

 

NGC has a grade PF XX Ultra Cameo on some coins. Why and what's the difference?

 

Hennie

 

Hi Hennie,

 

The strike characteristics known as cameo (CA) & ultra cameo (UC) refer to the raised devices or designs having a "frosted" look in comparison to the fields which would be highly reflective or mirrorlike. the deeper such contrast is, the more cameo is its appearance and coins that exhibit this contrast in an almost white to black contrast are given the strike characteristic Ultra Cameo.

 

357741_SILVER_RANDS_14_JULY1968.jpg

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bargainhunter01

Hi Alex

 

That explains it BUT why does NGC elect to grade them in different "classes" in their "population".

 

They have the 70 grades to "play around in". Is there really any valid reason to go and complicate it further?

 

I have a number of proofsets (RSA and Union) which have a few coins that could possibly go to Cameo/Ultra Cameo (great frosting).

 

Would it be worthwhile to "break the set" and try to get a NGC grading of PF65 Ultra Cameo on a 20c Van Riebeeck (no special Language) or any other denomination for that matter?

 

In my book a PF in a set remains a PF - complicating it with "exotic" gradings is futile and adds no REAL value.

 

Next thing we'll see is a Cameo 1892 ZAR Pond (obviously DS)??

 

Herman (Banker) Iinniekaap, get your grading show running ASAP, my maat

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