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ATA STAMP CENTRE

Too many signed mandela items lately!!

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time_machine

Dear MsPlod. Do you know the characteristics of an autopen?, I do , the Mandela De Klerk signed photo shows absolutely no indication of autopen.

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time_machine

Autopen signatures have got nothing to do with authentic autographs.

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time_machine

please read the posts at the end of the thread

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coinshare

Hi All

Let me start of by saying I am not a handwriting specialist, but would like to add my opinion regarding some statements that have been made in this thread. I fully agree with JP on the autopen issue, in my opinion an autopen signature cannot be regarded as a genuine signature, but rather a copy. When a Certificate of Authenticity is issued it is not only based upon the basic similarities of proof samples, but various other important factors are also taken into consideration eg: pressure points, continuity etc. This is a very specialized and complex process and is best left to a professional. To my knowledge these kinds of details cannot be simulated by an autopen. As a collector of Mandela Original Hand Signed signatures for some time now, I have seen some very good forgeries in the form of tracings and other free hand attempts. This has done a lot of damage to a highly collectable item. When a COA is issued and the wording " in all probability" is used, it is because the person authenticating the item were not personally present at the time when the signing took place, but after a full professional examination has found the signature to be authentic. WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO OBTAIN A COA FROM AN INDEPENDANT HAND WRITING SPECIALIST? In my opinion this provides protection for both the Seller and the Buyer against the forgeries, autopens, stamps, prints etc. that are doing the rounds from time to time. I would therefore encourage any person buying any hand signed memorabilia to do their homework very carefully or engage the services of a professional in the field as no one wants to invest money and only realize a few years down the line that the signature is not authentic.

Cheryl

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Jacques Kuun

Hello all

A certificate that includes the words “in all probability” can not possibly be a respectable certificate at all. I would not touch an item accompanied by a certificate like that with a barge pole. Unless my knowledge was superior to that of the person issuing such Mickey Mouse certificates.

BoB buyers, please wake up! Buy from the dealers who know enough of their respective items to be knowledgeable enough to give their own opinions on the items that they are selling. No respectable or knowledgeable dealer should ever pass the buck. If you are uncertain about an item, by all means list it, but use the words “sold as is”.

Regards

Jacques

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

HI JACQUE AND ALL

My main concern is that many autopen signatures either done then or somehow added currently have been advertised and sold as original signatures.Some of these had certificates but these certificates were correct in their wording but failed to state whether original handwritten signatures or made by autopen

.An autopen signature is collectible and still scarce and should retail for around R1500 if so advertised and not be advertised as genuine and then the seller is misleading buyers and wanting between R4000 TO R5000 for the signed item.

Also of concern is the certain seller that gives their own fancy certificate stating that a" company expert has examined the siganture and in all probability it is genuine".Apart from the ambiguous wording this is not acceptable.I am a stamp dealer and if i issued my own certifcates no matter how knowledgeable i am i would be the laughing stock of the stamp trade.

I have collected political and mandela memorabilia for some years and you get a feel for what should be out there based on the difficulty in acquiring it (not related to the pricing) and the reason i started this thread is that it just looked like there were too many items out there than should be expected.

NEIL

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Jacques Kuun

Hello Neil

Your words: “Some of these had certificates but these certificates were correct in their wording but failed to state whether original handwritten signatures or made by autopen”.

Then surely they are not legitimate certificates?

If I were to sell you a genuine stamp, giving you my word that the stamp is genuine, but fail to state whether the overprint is genuine or not (take the first Swaziland 10 Shilling for instance) then I am stating only half the truth by omitting half the facts. Why should the Mandela signatures, which are unfortunately tightly tied to the philatelic market as well, be treated with such tremendous tolerance?

These so called certificates that are being referred to in the above posts are worthless and nothing more than sales gimmicks.

Regards

Jacques

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coinshare

Hi Jacques

Which COA's are you referring to??

Are you then implying that the Certificate of Authenticity issued by a World Renown Forensic Handwriting Specialist - (I specifically refer to the Original Hand Signed items that myself and JP sell with the certificate issued by Mr. Cecil Greenfield- currently listed) is worthless and carries no weight or are you referring to the COA's that are issued by the seller themselves???? I would suggest that you rather reserve comment on this matter, unless you can substantiate such statements.

Even in the philatic field, it is sometimes required to have a Certificate from an expert; typically this should not be issued by the seller but rather done professionally. I would recommend that BOB buyers do not only use the COA issued by the seller as conclusive proof of Authenticity, but still engage the services of an independent professional.

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alloway65

If we go back to basics re any of our own signatures, a few thoughts:

· Every time we sign something even within a short period of time, the signatures are different and are based on such factors as:

o The basic form of the signature.

o The evenness and uniformity of the writing implement stroke.

o The pressure applied to the writing implement.

o The surface, evenness or otherwise, on which one is writing.

o The writing implement.

o The mood of the signee, whether relaxed or stressed.

o Whether the signee has plenty of time or is in a hurry.

· If one looked (from memory) at some of the Mandela signed items on BoB, most of the signatures appeared:

o Quite similar if not “nearly” identical.

o An even pressure appears to have been applied to the writing implement resulting in a uniform thickness of the “signature strokes” imparted by the writing implement.

o Mr. Mandela must have signed the (previously) offered signatures over a period of up to about 16 or so years. From what we hear of the great mans frailty, I am sure he is not currently signing his name on frivolous documents.

o Signatures penned over the last few years I am sure would be very erratic and uneven due to Mr. Mandela’s age and infirmity!

 

Try signing your own name 10 times on various surfaces and compare the results & report on this thread!

Regards

David

Edited by alloway65

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time_machine
Hello all

 

A certificate that includes the words “in all probability” can not possibly be a respectable certificate at all. I would not touch an item accompanied by a certificate like that with a barge pole. Unless my knowledge was superior to that of the person issuing such Mickey Mouse certificates.

 

BoB buyers, please wake up! Buy from the dealers who know enough of their respective items to be knowledgeable enough to give their own opinions on the items that they are selling. No respectable or knowledgeable dealer should ever pass the buck. If you are uncertain about an item, by all means list it, but use the words “sold as is”.

 

Regards

 

Jacques

 

Hi Jacque, may you please let us know on which certificate of authenticity these words appear, thanks

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time_machine

Hi, with regard to Jacques comment, ALL Authenticators which are reputable around the world will use words such as " in our opinion " or " in all probability " , I would only buy a Mandela signature that comes with a CECIL GREENFIELD CERTIFICATE. I suggest Jacque take a tour on Cecil Greenfields website

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time_machine
Hi All

Let me start of by saying I am not a handwriting specialist, but would like to add my opinion regarding some statements that have been made in this thread. I fully agree with JP on the autopen issue, in my opinion an autopen signature cannot be regarded as a genuine signature, but rather a copy. When a Certificate of Authenticity is issued it is not only based upon the basic similarities of proof samples, but various other important factors are also taken into consideration eg: pressure points, continuity etc. This is a very specialized and complex process and is best left to a professional. To my knowledge these kinds of details cannot be simulated by an autopen. As a collector of Mandela Original Hand Signed signatures for some time now, I have seen some very good forgeries in the form of tracings and other free hand attempts. This has done a lot of damage to a highly collectable item. When a COA is issued and the wording " in all probability" is used, it is because the person authenticating the item were not personally present at the time when the signing took place, but after a full professional examination has found the signature to be authentic. WHY IS IT IMPORTANT TO OBTAIN A COA FROM AN INDEPENDANT HAND WRITING SPECIALIST? In my opinion this provides protection for both the Seller and the Buyer against the forgeries, autopens, stamps, prints etc. that are doing the rounds from time to time. I would therefore encourage any person buying any hand signed memorabilia to do their homework very carefully or engage the services of a professional in the field as no one wants to invest money and only realize a few years down the line that the signature is not authentic.

Cheryl

 

Lets hope Bid or Buy start making it a rule soon. " ALL MANDELA SIGNATURES ON BID OR BUY MUST BE ACCOMPANIED BY A CECIL GREENFIELD CERTIFICATE OF AUTHENTICITY "

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Jacques Kuun

Hello all

 

Firstly, I have never questioned any of your experts’ technical knowledge, credibility or integrity.

 

Secondly, would you buy a car that comes with a warranty that states that “the engine is fine in all probability”?

 

Thirdly, in the late 90’s signed Mandela were less scarce than now. I must have sold more than a 100 of these items, most of them to the late Raffi Travis (the then owner of Sandton Stamps). So I do not consider myself a novice on the subject. I have NEVER needed a certificate on any item. I rely on my own knowledge and my reputation in the philatelic trade and all the items that I sell comes with an unconditional money-back-guarantee. Where I am unsure about an item, I rather not offer it for sale, or I sell it “As Is” (still with a money-back-guarantee).

 

Fourthly, in the philatelic world, an item is usually inspected by at least THREE (could be up to eight) experts before a certificate is issued. It is then issued with the words: in OUR opinion, not in MY opinion.

 

I can go on, but see no point in it. What is Coinshare’s opinion on the signed covers that they are selling?

 

Regards

 

Jacques

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time_machine

Firstly: The philatelic trade has got nothing to do with the Autograph trade

Secondly : A Certificate of Authenticity ( From a qualified graphologist ) is highly important because although you as a dealer might know a signature is authentic you don't have the qualifications to actually issue a certificate ( however it is okay to offer a money back guarantee that should the item be proved not authentic you offer a refund, if you are not offering the signature with a certificate )

Thirdly: It's a known fact that signatures which do not come with the appropriate certification fetch far less than those that do

Fourthly: When you sold most of those items to Raffi Travis in the late 90's there were far less forgeries than there are today

Fithly: Have you visited Mr Greenfiled's website?

 

Regards

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Jacques Kuun

Hello Time Machine

I am pressed for time (Wednesday Crazy Auction) and will answer your questions soon.

But please note in the mean time: most of the items in question are FDC’s!!!! They are part of the philatelic trade.

Regards

Jacques

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time_machine

Jacques, should you go to Greenfield's website be sure to click on the # 4 Link called PROBABLITY

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admin

Hi All,

 

This thread has run its course. Should Cecil Greenfield be in need of business, I suggest he list his services on bidorbuy.

 

Thank you.

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