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ATA STAMP CENTRE

Too many signed mandela items lately!!

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alloway65

MsPlod....I am now going to call you MsRazorSharp!!!! A detective in the making.:bigsmile:

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Marnitz01

Hi Everyone

 

Wow, I had no idea when i posted the ad for my books that there are so many issues and questions about authenticity of goods! I guess it was very naive of me to think you can just list something and someone will buy it. :smile: Anyway, I dont know why, but all of a sudden I feel I need to justify and provide proof that my books were genuinely signed by Madiba. My husband works for the Presidential protection unit and have bodyguarded all the presidents and some deputy's since 1996. We have tons of photographs, signed pictures, books etc off all of them in our house. None of which are really worth anything except the 2 books signed by Madiba.

 

I have attached some pictures (of the pictures we have displayed in and around our house). These are all pics of my husband Lloyd with everyone he's protected, as well as recent pics of our family with Pres Zuma and deputy Mothlante. (Just feel I have to provide proof to everyone who posted comments and are concerned about the fraud out there). Although I would however suggest that anyone interested in my items should make an appointment with a professional who can confirm that the autographs are authentic, and I will meet the buyer there with the books.

 

58f5a71ddf52b_Pretoria22009..jpg.ab1417529df8310b5f52d250d77ea044.jpg

Qunu..jpg.b4f84176bc01f2ddfd9635db5940ff44.jpg

58f5a71dcc656_PhumzileNgcuka..jpg.b11d5952ea84b31694263655dd6de2c0.jpg

JZ..jpg.ff167552424b58e4bbfa50012a7d6ef2.jpg

58f5a71dd96ac_Pretoria2009..jpg.e2870463e98af90a9827973e542d57e6.jpg

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JULIET PARRISH

Mandela Autograph

 

Hi guys, it is with shock I notice the forgeries of Madibas signature on BOB. I even went as far as putting a warning on the items I am selling. As a result have I received a few emails, and we all agree there are forgeries out there, so please be careful. Make use of a bone fide authenticator, do your own research. Regards

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JULIET PARRISH

Sorry, forgot to comment on that photo, that was posted, Mandela and De klerk,, yes that is an original signature, certified by Mr Greenfield. Signed in my presence!

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alloway65
Hi guys, it is with shock I notice the forgeries of Madibas signature on BOB. I even went as far as putting a warning on the items I am selling. As a result have I received a few emails, and we all agree there are forgeries out there, so please be careful. Make use of a bone fide authenticator, do your own research. Regards

 

For clarity so from what you say above you are 100% sure that the referenced Mandela Signature on the photographs purchased from JP on BoB by myself are authentic?

Thanks

David

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alloway65
Sorry, forgot to comment on that photo, that was posted, Mandela and De klerk,, yes that is an original signature, certified by Mr Greenfield. Signed in my presence!

 

Thanks.....just saw you additional notation now. David

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alloway65
Hi Everyone

 

Wow, I had no idea when i posted the ad for my books that there are so many issues and questions about authenticity of goods! I guess it was very naive of me to think you can just list something and someone will buy it. :smile: Anyway, I dont know why, but all of a sudden I feel I need to justify and provide proof that my books were genuinely signed by Madiba. My husband works for the Presidential protection unit and have bodyguarded all the presidents and some deputy's since 1996. We have tons of photographs, signed pictures, books etc off all of them in our house. None of which are really worth anything except the 2 books signed by Madiba.

 

I have attached some pictures (of the pictures we have displayed in and around our house). These are all pics of my husband Lloyd with everyone he's protected, as well as recent pics of our family with Pres Zuma and deputy Mothlante. (Just feel I have to provide proof to everyone who posted comments and are concerned about the fraud out there). Although I would however suggest that anyone interested in my items should make an appointment with a professional who can confirm that the autographs are authentic, and I will meet the buyer there with the books.

 

 

Hi Zelda,

No one was having a go at your offering, to my understanding this thread was started by a BoB Forum Member commenting on other Mandela offerings by at least one other seller.

I would now like comments to the JP posts.

Thanks

David

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Marnitz01

Yes of course. I realised that David. I guess im just overwhelmed by all these comments that i immediately felt i had to "defend" my listing... :bigsmile:. Its all good though..

 

Z

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JULIET PARRISH

Mandela Autograph

 

100% david!

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JULIET PARRISH

Wow, finally time to read the whole thread, ok some points firstly on the forgeries on BOB. firstly I noted that some First Day Covers that were and are on sale, were in fact signed using an autopen. An autopen is a machine operated pen utilised to sign bulk letters or items. Mandela did make use of the autopen during his period in government, and these items would be considered legal, however for a collector it must be understood he did not put his hand on that signature.

Secondly I noticed a seller who had put on a few Mandela signatures all looking very much the same. One thing I noted about Madiba is that from about 3 to 5 years ago his signature would have deviations and it is very unlikely that a seller would have more than 3 signatures signed in the last 3 to 5 years looking almost identical. Please also look at the price, it is very unlikely a seller who knows he has original Madiba signatures would let it go on for R1500. the going rate for an original Madiba signature is from R5000 upwards depending on what has been signed and the condition of the signature. Thirdly the signature I found most concerning is the one where you have 5 'spikes' in Madibas signature at the beginning of the autograph, they are generally equal in lengh. Madiba did sign like this, but was not a very common signature, infact of all my autographs I have noted only 2 of these. My concern is that I noticed a few sellers put these on sale, firstly at a very low price and secondly they were all this same pattern of signature. Concerning the "experts" please make 100% you know and have dealt with various Mandela signatures from all time periods before passing judgement. Most of my Mandela autographs are from the last 8 years, and the difference in the signatures are unbelievable, some signed, N R MANDELA, N R D MANDELA, NELSON MANDELA, and then the traditional signature.[ATTACH=CONFIG]845[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]846[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]847[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]848[/ATTACH] Please view the autographs attached, notice the N R Mandela, you will see the similar style of the M and R used in the Mandela, De klerk Photo.

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alloway65
Wow, finally time to read the whole thread, ok some points firstly on the forgeries on BOB. firstly I noted that some First Day Covers that were and are on sale, were in fact signed using an autopen. An autopen is a machine operated pen utilised to sign bulk letters or items. Mandela did make use of the autopen during his period in government, and these items would be considered legal, however for a collector it must be understood he did not put his hand on that signature.

Secondly I noticed a seller who had put on a few Mandela signatures all looking very much the same. One thing I noted about Madiba is that from about 3 to 5 years ago his signature would have deviations and it is very unlikely that a seller would have more than 3 signatures signed in the last 3 to 5 years looking almost identical. Please also look at the price, it is very unlikely a seller who knows he has original Madiba signatures would let it go on for R1500. the going rate for an original Madiba signature is from R5000 upwards depending on what has been signed and the condition of the signature. Thirdly the signature I found most concerning is the one where you have 5 'spikes' in Madibas signature at the beginning of the autograph, they are generally equal in lengh. Madiba did sign like this, but was not a very common signature, infact of all my autographs I have noted only 2 of these. My concern is that I noticed a few sellers put these on sale, firstly at a very low price and secondly they were all this same pattern of signature. Concerning the "experts" please make 100% you know and have dealt with various Mandela signatures from all time periods before passing judgement. Most of my Mandela autographs are from the last 8 years, and the difference in the signatures are unbelievable, some signed, N R MANDELA, N R D MANDELA, NELSON MANDELA, and then the traditional signature.[ATTACH=CONFIG]845[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]846[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]847[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]848[/ATTACH] Please view the autographs attached, notice the N R Mandela, you will see the similar style of the M and R used in the Mandela, De klerk Photo.

 

Thanks JP,

Very informative...and food for thought.

Lets see what the other "experts" now say!

Looking forward to more interesting posts.

David

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MsPlod
as an admittedly complete ignoramus)....

Finding this all rather fascinating. Look forward to hearing more. Anyone know any graphologists out there?

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time_machine

Mandela Autographs

 

A certificate of authenticity is only as important as the qualifications of the person issuing it.

People buying Mandela signatures should make contact with Cecil Greenfield

Most importantly THINK before you buy and do your homework - really do your homework

Edited by admin
Removed link to one of the lockers

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time_machine

graphologist: Cecil Greenfield .

Edited by admin
Removed link to one of the lockers

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JPBon

I hate to tell you that your links are actually for a company which sells lockers

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lilythepink
I hate to tell you that your links are actually for a company which sells lockers

 

Perhaps the lockers are for keeping signed Mandela memorabilia in? LOL

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time_machine
graphologist: Cecil greenfield .

bid or buy seems to not want to allow the website of a well respected autograph authenticator to be seen ( as its a link ) so let me help those who want to authenticate signatures, and in the process do bid or buy a favour. Go to google and type " cecil greenfield " a link will come up he is situated in wendywood

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JULIET PARRISH

Your opinion

 

Time Machine please give your opinion for David on the DeKlerk and Mandela signed photo. He is looking for further confirmation on its authenticity. You will find the photo near the beginning of the thread. Had a chat to Mr Greenfield last night and it appears that there could be an autopen around used for 'signing' of the Mandela signature. Now there is a big debate as to whether the autopen is regarded as an legitimate autograph or not. It is in my opinion no, because what a collector wants is the personal contact with the signed item, an autopen is as good as a copy.

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alloway65
Time Machine please give your opinion for David on the DeKlerk and Mandela signed photo. He is looking for further confirmation on its authenticity. You will find the photo near the beginning of the thread. Had a chat to Mr Greenfield last night and it appears that there could be an autopen around used for 'signing' of the Mandela signature. Now there is a big debate as to whether the autopen is regarded as an legitimate autograph or not. It is in my opinion no, because what a collector wants is the personal contact with the signed item, an autopen is as good as a copy.

 

Thanks JP,

Your continued input very much appreciated.

Mine is not a major issue as I knowingly bought photographs of the "real" thing....for my grandchildren!

But for BoB buyers who paid thousands for "original" Mandela Signatures...it is a serious matter.

David

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

Hi

I started this thread for the very reason that i suspect that their is currently an autopen in use.I have seen what appears to me to be the autopen signature on a mandela 90th birthday cover -What stumped me was that this was certified by the expert we referring to as authentic.Now i know it is authentic but in my opinion an autopen is not an original signature.

NEIL

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ATA STAMP CENTRE

HI

It seems the signed mandela items are now not being offered so readily!!

NEIL

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JULIET PARRISH

Neil I cant agree more, Mr Greenfield's opinion is that an autopen signature is authentic, however after speaking to him last night he believes its the right of the collector or buyer, to know whether the item is signed with the autopen or not. I believe therefore its important for us to inform BOB users to this fact. I have tried to put this warning on my items, to inform all buyers. Furthermore I believe it necessary for us to mention these sellers who are using the autopen, and maybe even get there involvement.

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MsPlod
Sorry, forgot to comment on that photo, that was posted, Mandela and De klerk,, yes that is an original signature, certified by Mr Greenfield. Signed in my presence!

So this one was not signed with the autopen then?

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time_machine

This is an original Nelson Mandela autograph. The problem these days is due to the amount of forgeries out there, one is forgetting that Mandela Signature is a variable one, and the above signed photo is 100% authentic, as is De Klerk's signature.

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time_machine

An autopen is not an autograph end of story.

An autograph is a signature signed by a human in his / her own hand.

I would rather have NO signature than have an AUTOPEN signature

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