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anerstemens

Nelson_mandela_90th_birthday_r5_coins

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kyle2    10
kyle2

They are neither rare or valuable, it is a phenomenon which happened due to people hoarding these coins and is perpetuated by unscrupulous sellers making rediculous claims such as the one mentioned in your post. That being said, ignorance prevailed and I also bought some of these coins before learning more about the subject and now sit with coins which won't sell at the moment.

These coins are popping up in change everywhere nowadays.

If you can find a MS 68,69,70, it might be worth aquiring them or a proof version. Anything less than that is as they say, fools gold.

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anerstemens    10
anerstemens

Thank you Kyle, please check out my other post (nothing to do with coins thought) maybe you would like to comment on that here is the link: http://forum.bidorbuy.co.za/community-chat-forum/11413-authentication-merobila.html

They are neither rare or valuable, it is a phenomenon which happened due to people hoarding these coins and is perpetuated by unscrupulous sellers making rediculous claims such as the one mentioned in your post. That being said, ignorance prevailed and I also bought some of these coins before learning more about the subject and now sit with coins which won't sell at the moment.

These coins are popping up in change everywhere nowadays.

If you can find a MS 68,69,70, it might be worth aquiring them or a proof version. Anything less than that is as they say, fools gold.

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PBGold    10
PBGold

I have been giving these coins some thought, and it may seem strange but it is actually a way to double your money quickly i.e. earn a 100% profit.

 

I am talking here about the normal R5 pocket change version, not any of the graded stuff.

 

These normal coins easily fetch R 10, even here on BoB and even some dealers will pay R10 for them. I know I do, because they make awesome introductory gifts to new clients. Add one to your business card and suddenly you have 'one upped' your competition. Now, I am not saying I will buy hundreds or thousands but I will buy quantity.

 

So, you have your product cost which is R5 and your income is R10, then it is not such a bad investment after all. It will certainly beat most of the more traditional investment vehicles.

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wayjen    10
wayjen

I agree with you PBGold, no matter what people say about these particular coins there will be someone out there who will buy a coin(s) like these for personal reasons.

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EWAAN Galleries    10
EWAAN Galleries

Mandela 90th Birthday Proof Still Holding Value!

 

Hi All

 

The Mandela 90th Birthday R5 in UNC Condition have really dropped in price BUT the Proof 69 still holding a value of R25000-00....

 

See These Auctions Below From When We Started Selling the PF69's..... Interesting.....

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/21572685/FINALLY_HERE_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo_First_on_Bid_or_Buy_R1_Start.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/22244698/FINALLY_HERE_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo_First_on_Bid_or_Buy_Last_One.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/23149165/Look_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo_R1_Start.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/23583857/Look_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo_R1_Start.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/24398767/Look_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo_Sunday_Special.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/24332376/Look_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo_R1_Start.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/25444648/Look_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo_Sunday_Special.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/24831504/Look_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo_R1_Start.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/27462875/Look_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo_R1_Start.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/28138695/Look_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo.html

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/28378328/Look_Mandela_90th_Birthday_R5_NGC_PROOF_69_Ultra_Cameo.html

 

 

As you notice we have sold a few on bid or buy. First One Sold For R47500-00, now the price is set at around R25000-00...

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PBGold    10
PBGold

I also think it is a bit of a stretch to say that these coins have lost value simply because the prices on Bidorbuy have dropped.

 

An auction website should never be used as a price guide or measuring stick for value or prices. It is very inaccurate and a slave to the fickle whims of the public in general. Countless times I have heard or read that a product has lost value because it is currently selling for less on BoB than it was in previous months. Countless times I have heard or read that something is a 'bad investment' or just a 'bubble' because the prices on BoB have dropped.

 

BoB is not a price Bible, nor should it ever be. It is an auction site. Just because a coin sells for less today than it did a month ago does not suddenly mean that that coin is rubbish or a bad investment.

 

In fact, the mechanisms of the auction will inevitably dictate that the products that originally fetch higher prices will drop in price as time goes by. Why? Because everyone sees that these products are selling at high prices and then the listings are flooded with these self same products, which of course drives the prices down. There will also be 'undercutting' of auctions with Buy nows i.e. a seller will see that an auction is going up nicely and will then put up a Buy now at the same price, effectively stopping the auction dead in its tracks. And then another seller will come along to under cut that Buy now in turn, and so on.

 

Thus, a product seems to lose 'value' and starts attracting negative comments. However, the product has lost no value at all. The price has simply dropped on one auction site.

 

The same can be applied to these graded Mandela R5s. The first coins to appear fetched high prices. Everyone saw that and also wanted to make money so they listed tons of the R5s, resulting in lower prices. So to say that these coins are worth nothing is simply false.

 

Their price has dropped because of flooding by sellers..on BoB. It has nothing to do with investments or bubbles at all.

 

This is why an auction site is useless as a price guide.

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eZethu Coins    10
eZethu Coins
I also think it is a bit of a stretch to say that these coins have lost value simply because the prices on Bidorbuy have dropped.

 

An auction website should never be used as a price guide or measuring stick for value or prices. It is very inaccurate and a slave to the fickle whims of the public in general. Countless times I have heard or read that a product has lost value because it is currently selling for less on BoB than it was in previous months. Countless times I have heard or read that something is a 'bad investment' or just a 'bubble' because the prices on BoB have dropped.

 

BoB is not a price Bible, nor should it ever be. It is an auction site. Just because a coin sells for less today than it did a month ago does not suddenly mean that that coin is rubbish or a bad investment.

 

In fact, the mechanisms of the auction will inevitably dictate that the products that originally fetch higher prices will drop in price as time goes by. Why? Because everyone sees that these products are selling at high prices and then the listings are flooded with these self same products, which of course drives the prices down. There will also be 'undercutting' of auctions with Buy nows i.e. a seller will see that an auction is going up nicely and will then put up a Buy now at the same price, effectively stopping the auction dead in its tracks. And then another seller will come along to under cut that Buy now in turn, and so on.

 

Thus, a product seems to lose 'value' and starts attracting negative comments. However, the product has lost no value at all. The price has simply dropped on one auction site.

 

The same can be applied to these graded Mandela R5s. The first coins to appear fetched high prices. Everyone saw that and also wanted to make money so they listed tons of the R5s, resulting in lower prices. So to say that these coins are worth nothing is simply false.

 

Their price has dropped because of flooding by sellers..on BoB. It has nothing to do with investments or bubbles at all.

 

This is why an auction site is useless as a price guide.

 

BoB does however remain as one of the market outlets and as such can be used as some measure - it bows to the normal supply & demand issues of a free market system. Besides for that - buyers become more educated over time (th elonger a product is on the market) which also influences their buying pattern.

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EWAAN Galleries    10
EWAAN Galleries

Auction Site Are the Best Price Guide!

 

Hi PB Gold

 

You mentioned that auction sites cannot be used as a price guide - so then which prices to we go with.....

 

Herns, Krause, etc.. prices are not all correct..... So best is to use good auction sites like this as a guideline! It is the best way to see how the market changes from month to month.....

 

 

We honestly believe that auctions sites like Bid or Buy or Ebay are the cheapest places to get coins - NOT ALWAYS but in most cases....

 

BUT ALWAYS REMEMBER YOUR COINS ARE ONLY WORTH WHAT THE BUYER IS PREPARED TO PAY!!!!

 

Give you a simple example, we sold a 1892 Proof Penny about a month ago off bid or buy for R630 000-00, but the buyer really needed the coin to complete his proof set. It was a finest known specimen....That does not set the price at that for another one... We do have another finest known for sale and in todays market we will probably get less than R630 000-00.... So all coins only worth what the buyers are prepared to pay!!!!

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

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PBGold    10
PBGold

Yep, I hear what you are saying, there are very few definitive sources for prices.

 

But, using your example, if you did list that finest known again and it sold for, let's say, R 530 000 (R 100 000 less) on BoB you would have an army of people telling the world how bad that coin is because it lost R 100 000 in 'value' in a few months. Even though that may be wrong, it is still the reality, because so many people consider BoB to be a price Bible, which it is not.

 

I have found the same is true for most products. The old adage of perception is more important than reality comes to mind here.

 

BoB is probably the cheapest place to find coins but this is more due to the fact that 95% of Bobbers are dealers themselves, so they are not willing to pay higher prices because they have to factor their own margins in for resale. Which makes it a strange situation as BoB has positioned itself as competition to the coin dealers of the country.

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Guest Guest   
Guest Guest

The answer is so simple

 

There is only one simple rule.

 

Supply and demand. If the demand is there the price will rise; if it is not it will fall.

 

Nothing complicated about this.

 

Books by Hern and others are simply a guideline and all it takes is two keen bidders to blow a price out of the water or no interest in the auction to see the price collapse. My personal view is that Hern's prices on tokens are amazingly unreliable and have little or no basis although his books do help in the identification of most important tokens. That is the value of Hern's books in my opinion. To a large degree this simple philosophy relates to the supply and demand argument.

 

My personal opinion is the way to go is to sell a coin at a price way below what the "market" suggests because that creates initial interest. Once several buyers are involved in a listing they tend to follow it closely and an element of "winning" and their piqued interest starts driving their bids. When I see listings with reserve prices way above the "market value" I bookmark them and, almost without exception, see that they attract no bids while simlar items following my simple strategy often attract much higher bids in fierce competition.

 

The psychology of buying is no different to that of selling - we all want to make a good investment/return.

 

PS I have no hesitation in recommending Bid or Buy, in my opinion, as the best online auction for sellers of South African coins and it is no surprise to me that record prices are achieved here - nothing to do with the seller - like social networking - it is all to do with the specialist audience and those attracted to a listing.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Edited by ndoa18

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Cold Sea    0
Cold Sea

Catholic News | Vatican Euro Coins Are Put Into Public Circulation | American Catholic

 

These circulated Vatican Euros are also not rare, but difficult to get a hold of.

 

Under the terms of last year's agreement, instead of being limited to a total annual coin value of just under 1.1 million euros, the Vatican will be authorized to mint coins worth up to 2.3 million euros with the expectation that nearly half of those coins are put into public circulation.

 

Seems like you just can't get enough of a good thing.

Edited by Cold Sea

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jwither    10
jwither

The only valid measure of prices for ANY coin is actual sales. So regardless of whether the prices fluctuate a lot or not, auctions are the best indicator of their real value. Price guides, especially for those which are only annual such as Hern or Krause, are effectively worthless for determining value.

 

As for the Mandela 90th BD coin, its only natural that the price would decrease over time given how ridiculously common it is in actuality. There is a vast supply of these coins available in all grades except for "conditional' rarities. And all conditional rarities are only "rare" in a narrow, arbitrary, artificial and imaginary sense. Conditional rarities sell for absurd prices in the United States also and I still cannot figure why anyone would ever pay such exorbitant prices for a coin which is so common and does not even look that different from others which are one or even two points lower on the grading scale.

 

I recently checked the prices of this coin, the 2000 Mandela 5R and the 1994 Inauguration 5R on the South Africa Coin Company website. The prices for conditional rarities ranged from (I believe) almost $100,000 for the latter two (PR-69 UCAM and PR-70 UCAM) to an incredibly $338,000 for an MS-68 2008. If these are actual prices, then they are undeniably the most overpriced coins in the world.

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EWAAN Galleries    10
EWAAN Galleries

Mandela 90th Birthday PF69 Sells For R30100-00 on a Crazy R1 Start.....

 

Very Interesting auction that attracted a lot of interest.... Proof Birthday Coin Still Holding Value of over R25000-00

 

Graded - Look @@@ Mandela 90th Birthday R5 NGC PROOF 69 Ultra Cameo - NOW @@@ R1 Start was sold for R30,100.00 on 17 Nov at 21:03 by EWAAN Galleries in Johannesburg (ID:28200890)

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Guest Guest   
Guest Guest

Sorry Mohammed

 

I could not and would never pay that price for a modern coin.

 

But someone has - so well done.

 

PS Totally agree with your comment above...

 

Herns, Krause, etc.. prices are not all correct..... So best is to use good auction sites like this as a guideline! It is the best way to see how the market changes from month to month.....

 

Cheers

 

Scott Balson

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PBGold    10
PBGold

I would not say that BoB is a good auction site, maybe average or even below average. They try too hard to be a numismatic dealer instead of remaining neutral like they should be. They influence buying and selling trends by making statements about the industry, which is a big no no for auction sites. Their advertising is obviously designed to compete with dealers, and is often misleading, stating that they have certain coins which they do not have. They also have no control over which coins they have 'in stock' which should actually make it illegal to advertise such products as 'in stock'.

 

BoB can be good and even great but they must first 'neutralize' themselves and just be a straight auction site.

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Guest Guest   
Guest Guest

Add 20%

 

Hi

 

We agree on most things and I have been banned from this site in the past for speaking my mind on this forum (something I still do not resile from).

 

But I have to say that BoB is an amazing market for South African coins. eBay does not even come close and it is so important that South Africa has its own auction site independent of the players in Wall Street. (eBay is a listed company on Wall Street).

 

There is nothing to touch BoB and the involvement of the company's management in its day to day running reflects that personal touch. Just wait until an eBay purchase goes bad (it has happened to me and cost me US$2,000) then you will see why smaller auction sites like BoB are such a valuable resource.

 

I would go as far as to say that without BoB South African coins would immediately lose about 20% of their current value and dealers need to accept that we now live in the age of the Internet. Just thank your lucky stars that you have a BoB.. we have nothing like it in Australia and are suffering as a result.

 

That is how important BoB is.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Edited by ndoa18

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PBGold    10
PBGold

Maybe a business opportunity for you there Scott? :cool:

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qball    10
qball
I would not say that BoB is a good auction site, maybe average or even below average. They try too hard to be a numismatic dealer instead of remaining neutral like they should be. They influence buying and selling trends by making statements about the industry, which is a big no no for auction sites. Their advertising is obviously designed to compete with dealers, and is often misleading, stating that they have certain coins which they do not have. They also have no control over which coins they have 'in stock' which should actually make it illegal to advertise such products as 'in stock'.

 

BoB can be good and even great but they must first 'neutralize' themselves and just be a straight auction site.

 

Wow... :confused:

 

Can I ask why you still continue to sell on the site if it is below average and apparantly "competing" directly with other dealers? Could clarify how we compete or are not neutral? What statements do you refer to? I wasn't aware that we made statements about the industry and that we influence buying and selling through said statements. I am sorry, but I must be missing something major here? What advertising do you refer to? We spend millions of Rands on getting new buyers to the site and no adverts we publish or put on the web are misleading, that would be against everything we stand for. So again, not sure... :weird:

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EWAAN Galleries    10
EWAAN Galleries

Hi

 

 

Bid or Buy is the biggest auction site on SA coins - maybe PB Gold referring to some other world coins, or he has absolutely no idea what sales go on on this site :)

 

And Bid or Buy does definitely hurt some dealers - the really expensive dealers......

Edited by EWAAN Galleries

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PBGold    10
PBGold

Well, I sell here for the same reason everyone does, to make money.

 

A simple search on Google for something like ‘Mandela coins’ will quickly prove that BoB is competing with the dealers. The statements I am referring to are ones like ‘2008 Mandela coin: the frenzy is unleashed’. Its just one example of how BoB makes statements even though they know nothing about coins.

 

Bob’s adverts are misleading as they give the impression that BoB is a dealer and not an auction site. Try those Google searches again to see what I mean. There is no mention of any ‘auctions’ on those ads.

 

@ Ewaan. I do not believe that BoB is hurting any dealer, as competitors come and go like in any industry, and thus dealers will adjust strategies accordingly. BoB is just another competitor, that’s all, and is treated as such.

 

As a matter of interest, if there are any ‘really expensive’ dealers in South Africa, they deserve to be hurt in any case. However, the majority of dealers sell at market related prices. If these dealers are viewed as ‘expensive’ it is not because they are, it is because every second Tom, **** and Harry is now a dealer who works from home i.e. no expenses, and is thus able to undercut the normal dealers. [This is as a result of the Mandela boom, where so-called ‘dealers’ entered the market just to make a quick buck.]

 

The dealers who sell at market related prices should never be viewed as ‘expensive’, even though a ‘suitcase dealer’ offers the same product at a much lower price creating that impression. We are hoping that the new FIC regulations, combined with stricter dealer requirements from the S.A.Mint (e.g. now insisting that a dealer has offices or shops) will level the playing fields.

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Guest Guest   
Guest Guest

Que?

 

@ Ewaan. I do not believe that BoB is hurting any dealer, as competitors come and go like in any industry, and thus dealers will adjust strategies accordingly. BoB is just another competitor, that’s all, and is treated as such.
So why your post above attacking BoB?

 

I do not understand

 

The dealers who sell at market related prices should never be viewed as ‘expensive’, even though a ‘suitcase dealer’ offers the same product at a much lower price creating that impression. We are hoping that the new FIC regulations, combined with stricter dealer requirements from the S.A.Mint (e.g. now insisting that a dealer has offices or shops) will level the playing fields.
But how does having an office or shop make you legit? I buy from many "suitcase dealers" on BoB who I respect and trust .. but stay well clear of others who are in the old boys club (with an office or shop). Thank you BoB for giving me that opportunity of choice...

 

Aaahhh.. now I think I understand the issue! Naughty BoB for giving everyone a level playing field (in Australia known as "a fair go" :) )

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Edited by ndoa18

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qball    10
qball
Well, I sell here for the same reason everyone does, to make money.

 

A simple search on Google for something like ‘Mandela coins’ will quickly prove that BoB is competing with the dealers. The statements I am referring to are ones like ‘2008 Mandela coin: the frenzy is unleashed’. Its just one example of how BoB makes statements even though they know nothing about coins.

 

Bob’s adverts are misleading as they give the impression that BoB is a dealer and not an auction site. Try those Google searches again to see what I mean. There is no mention of any ‘auctions’ on those ads.

 

@ Ewaan. I do not believe that BoB is hurting any dealer, as competitors come and go like in any industry, and thus dealers will adjust strategies accordingly. BoB is just another competitor, that’s all, and is treated as such.

 

As a matter of interest, if there are any ‘really expensive’ dealers in South Africa, they deserve to be hurt in any case. However, the majority of dealers sell at market related prices. If these dealers are viewed as ‘expensive’ it is not because they are, it is because every second Tom, **** and Harry is now a dealer who works from home i.e. no expenses, and is thus able to undercut the normal dealers. [This is as a result of the Mandela boom, where so-called ‘dealers’ entered the market just to make a quick buck.]

 

The dealers who sell at market related prices should never be viewed as ‘expensive’, even though a ‘suitcase dealer’ offers the same product at a much lower price creating that impression. We are hoping that the new FIC regulations, combined with stricter dealer requirements from the S.A.Mint (e.g. now insisting that a dealer has offices or shops) will level the playing fields.

 

With all due respect PBGold, surely as a dealer we would be selling the coins ourselves? We would be stocking the coins? A statement like the one you quote above is factually true, as there has been a frenzy with these coins, that is undeniable, this does not mean we are competing with dealers nor making statements that we know nothing about (you are referring to a Press release we made in 2008 regarding our opinion on the matter and not an advert, as we had been approached by various parties regarding our thoughts on the matter and we did state that these coins are not investment coins after contacting many of our current sellers on the site for feedback), quite frankly we cannot see how this is misleading nor that we are making statements as if we were dealers - we have a coin category and as such we take an interest in it, even though we are not experts, however, everything we state is published after contacting many experts in the field and by doing research on the subject matter for our press release and obviously our opinion on it.

 

What we are doing is creating campaigns on Google Adwords to drive traffic to our site and compete on Adwords with other coin dealers who are not on our site, this is done to get traffic to your listings and help you make sales. Our ads are in no way misleading, all we do is advertise the fact that the coins are for sale on our site, most people know who we are and what we do, this is rather self explanatory and would recognise that we are not actually selling the coins, but driving traffic to our site, so people can buy from our numerous sellers, dealers and collectors. The ad campaigns are designed to be short, simple and relevant and are done in the required manner as prescribed by Google Adwords.

 

Kind regards

Cuan

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MsPlod    10
MsPlod
Tom, **** and Harry

ROFLMAO - the autocensor strikes again!

 

But on a serious note, BoB is advertising for the sellers on BoB. Sure, the more the traders make, the more BoB makes (success "breeds" success) and advertising in almost any form is a bit sensationalist by nature - but BoB is also arguably a boon for all coin markets since it is continually bringing "new" people into contact with coins and coin-collecting.

 

PBGold, surely the axe you have to grind is more to do with the internet (and advertising) rather than with BoB itself? Almost every industry is having to deal with the effects of online shopping versus those with a geographically defined location (shop/showroom with overheads, etc.).

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Rare NotesCoins    10
Rare NotesCoins

With a mintage of 22 106 000 these are extremelly rare. So rare that I have been offered 150 bags sealled with 400 coins per bag for R15 500 per bag. Very rare indeed. Not like the common chicken thooth or the Springbok grand slam.

Morne

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