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RISadler

What is "Laser Frosted"?

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Dulal
The set from the SAmint is in a lovely presentation box and is sold for about R300. The poor j*ck*ss who bought the one graded MS67 for R2300, could have saved himself R2000 and gone straight to the mint and bought the thing there, in its true collectable form.:P

 

Hi Kyle

There was some discussion on this forum last year about how this set including 2008 Mandela prof was distributed. My understandig is that most of the collectors on the street failed to secure those coins because they are not the big buyers of mint total products. I hope somebody will elaborate this issue.

regards

Dulal

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RISadler

I have 1958 Crown that permanently lies next to my laptop on my desk. I received this coin from my grandmother many years ago. Everyday, when I'm sitting there, thinking about how to solve a particular programming error/problem, this coin is played with, rolled across my fingers and sometimes just rubbed a bit with my thumb. This coin has value to me.

 

Slabbed coins are for the most part a gimmick. A very lucrative gimmick. It's also a variation of the old Brooklyn Bridge scam.

 

ndoa18, spot on. That's what this and any other collecting hobby is about.

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kyle2

SAmint

 

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Hi Kyle

There was some discussion on this forum last year about how this set including 2008 Mandela prof was distributed. My understandig is that most of the collectors on the street failed to secure those coins because they are not the big buyers of mint total products. I hope somebody will elaborate this issue.

 

regards

Dulal

 

Hi Dulal, contact the mint, they'll be able to assist you in obtaining one.:P

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PBGold

As long as you already have a Mint customer number you can get one. (1)

 

Thats how I understand it.

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Dulal
As long as you already have a Mint customer number you can get one. (1)

 

Thats how I understand it.

 

Hi kyle and PB gold

I do have M.C. Number. Will try.

N.B. Last year I managed to fail badly (to secure one)

 

regards

Dulal

Hi

getting green signal. Good luck to me. Will inform the forum.

Regards

Dulal

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4kids

In order to understand the process of coin making here is a link to a short video which I am sure BoB will allow.

 

 

This process has become extremely time consuming and costly and new technology such as laser cutting to finished dies has been in use by the US mint since 1993 or their about. This involves the design in artwork on computer in al dimensions and elements and immediate transfer to one single machine i.e "laser die cutting machine" which will withing a few hours cut the final coin die from already hardened steel ready for use in the coin punching machines.

 

Unfortunately this process will hinder and curb the occurrences of error and variety coins for the next generations to collect which is so highly sough after al over the world.

 

These new technologies does hold great dangers in for rare coin collectors "and token collectors" as it would not be long before we each can own a perfect set of ungraded unverified and unauthenticated Strachan Tokens in our collections. Which is why I choose to have my coins graded. See my point?

 

Fortunately the guy at the local sign shop that do some pretty nifty "engraving" with his laser will not be able to make up a Coarse Beard Burgerspond yet, unless he spends a few million $$$ to buy the correct machinery.

 

The mint used their newly bought technology for the fist time on this special limited addition of the "Laser Frosted R5-00 Birthday Coin" and the Laser frosting was used on the Shirt of Mandela ONLY where the dies were made probably in the old fashioned way and then laser cut "frosted" in a final stage on the dies for these pieces. This is why the detail, i.e. flowers and patterns on the shirt is much more prominent and gives a frosted or somewhat cameo appearance to this piece. This was deliberately done to make the two coins different to each other. Note this is part of the minting process and not done on the coins after minting.

 

Always but always remember one thing - YESTERDAY IS HISTORY!

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4kids

 

Slabbed coins are for the most part a gimmick. A very lucrative gimmick. It's also a variation of the old Brooklyn Bridge scam.

 

ndoa18, spot on. That's what this and any other collecting hobby is about.

 

 

 

 

Do you refer to all coins or only Mandela R 5-00 coins here?

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RISadler
Do you refer to all coins or only Mandela R 5-00 coins here?

 

"Mandela" coins.

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4kids
"Mandela" coins.

 

 

Thank you, we agree on that point...

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Dulal
"Mandela" coins.

 

HI

There is one graded Mandela Wk.st (week/weak..street/strike) on BOB now, asking price R45000,00.

 

Dulal

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RISadler
Thank you, we agree on that point...

 

Yes, I can understand why you would want to "slab" a valuable coin.

 

I just cannot see how people can hold somebody else's grading opinion as gospel.

 

But what I simply cannot fathom is how people can part with thousands of their money for what a small scrap of hologrammed paper says about a coin that is legally worth only five Rand. Utterly amazing.

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Guest Guest

New technologies

 

4Kids wrote

 

These new technologies does hold great dangers in for rare coin collectors "and token collectors" as it would not be long before we each can own a perfect set of ungraded unverified and unauthenticated Strachan Tokens in our collections. Which is why I choose to have my coins graded. See my point?

 

I am of the view that new technologies will make it impossible to manufacture coins and get away with it, The most obvious technology will be an adaptation of spectrum lighting which will create a set pattern when directed at a coin. The pattern will reflect the metallic makeup of the coin which will be known. So fraud coins will have a different metallic composition creating a different pattern that will immediately identify the fraudulent copies.

 

I believe that future technologies like this will identify many coins in collections currently thought to be genuine.

 

PS I know that the S&Co coins I hold are genuine because they come from the original stock held by the Strachan and Co company in Umzimkhulu where they had been stored since they were withdrawn from circulation in 1932. I think it wil be many years before anyone tries to create copies of token coins and by then the new technology will disclose any fraudulent pieces.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

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RISadler
I believe that future technologies like this will identify many coins in collections currently thought to be genuine.

 

Great, but I pity the poor company that slabbed many a coin as genuine.

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4kids

I am of the view that new technologies will make it impossible to manufacture coins and get away with it, The most obvious technology will be an adaptation of spectrum lighting which will create a set pattern when directed at a coin. The pattern will reflect the metallic makeup of the coin which will be known. So fraud coins will have a different metallic composition creating a different pattern that will immediately identify the fraudulent copies.

 

I believe that future technologies like this will identify many coins in collections currently thought to be genuine.

 

PS I know that the S&Co coins I hold are genuine because they come from the original stock held by the Strachan and Co company in Umzimkhulu where they had been stored since they were withdrawn from circulation in 1932. I think it wil be many years before anyone tries to create copies of token coins and by then the new technology will disclose any fraudulent pieces.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

 

I would disagree with you 100%. The metal contents and percentage mixtures coins and tokens are made from can be replicated 100% using the very same technologies you describe and will make any forgery almost next to impossible to detect in such manner which is why there are so many dangers in store for the future generations that wants to continue with this hobby of ours.

 

I started to have my coins graded after I made the mistake of buying a fake ZAR Crown from, not a Chinese seller but a reputable International seller who refunded my money. The current reproduced items are done very crudely with casting moulds and dies and reletavely easy to identify but the future looks bleak in comparison.

 

The authenticity of the tokens you have in your collection is not questioned at all Scott but I refer to them to make a point. They are relatively crude n design, made from simple brass and in comparison with a well designed bronze, silver or gold coin would be an ideal target for making fakes.

 

Does it then not make sense to have at least some high grade or rare pieces authenticated and graded for posterity and thus secure the true value either in monetary terms or historic terms for generation to come?

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stevedel65

You are so right on this Scot.

 

Holding any old coin,I ask myself what was the total monetary value of that particular coin during it`s lifetime,What joy did it bring ,what heartache did it cause,was it ever fought over etc etc(Getting real philisophical here:()

 

I don`t think a lot of people understand or know the historical significance of coins

 

Just looking at a few of our own coins

 

1. The history of the "sparrows" and where it originated. This is a part of history that will get lost because we won`t see them again.

 

2. The "Lady of Good Hope" on the shillings and what she represent.

 

3. Do people know that the flower arrangement(Arums Lilly,Agapanthus and Strelitzia)on the 2nd decimal 50c represent the old flag in terms of colour

 

4. The signicance of the Springbok (Coert Steynberg,sculptor)stil portrayed on coins(Kruger Rands)

 

etc etc The list is endless

 

A few months ago I saw a listing on BOB "Prince portrayed on South African 5c"

The coin in question was a 2nd decimal 1966 Nickel 5c with the "Van Riebeeck" head

On Q&A I corrected the seller.The point is if some people don`t even know who Van Riebeeck was,then we are in trouble.

 

If BOB would allow I suggest we create a page on the forum where every-one can add their little pieces of coin trivia(above examples) For the sake of preserving history we owe it to numismatics in general.

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Patricia_Gert

Coin trivia: the historical significance of coins

 

 

If BOB would allow I suggest we create a page on the forum where every-one can add their little pieces of coin trivia(above examples) For the sake of preserving history we owe it to numismatics in general.

 

Hi Steve,

 

I think this is a brilliant idea and would add a tremendous amount of value in our hobby!

 

Maybe you can start this thread and ask BOB to make it a sticky?

 

Kind Regards,

Gert

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Dulal
Hi kyle and PB gold

I do have M.C. Number. Will try.

N.B. Last year I managed to fail badly (to secure one)

 

regards

Dulal

Hi

getting green signal. Good luck to me. Will inform the forum.

Regards

Dulal

 

Hi all

Set received. Many thanks for your (Kyle,PB GOLD) direction.

 

regards

Dulal

 

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Guest Guest

The Springbok

 

Hi Steve

 

I believe there is a chasm between coin investors and numismatists. Numismatists seek out the history of their coins and see them in a very different light. To a numismatist facts behind the coin are the foundation behind their interest - far more exciting than an NGC Population report. To a numismatist the thought that the coin they have played a role in some significant historical event makes them excited while an investor is only excited by the last price the coin he holds sold for at auction.

 

In fact a grading company's population report could be seen as the great wall that divides numismatists from investors. Investors get excited by having the top graded coin while numismatists look at the design and the coin's history in a very different light.

 

Without the foundation of numismatists investors would not have a market in coins so, for those who fall into the group who get excited by a coin's history - hold your head up high. Because someone has the financial resources to buy an expensive coin and show it off at a local coin collector's meeting does not, by default, make him knowledgeable about coins or their history. Personally, I have more respect for a collector who talks about his "widow's mite" with passion and knowledge than a collector who pulls out a Veldpond and then quotes from books.

 

To me it is not the price a coin would get in a public auction that gets me excited - it is the ability to be able to trace that coin's history - and that is what makes token coins special to me. Each variety has a very specific history - by origin, geography, timeline and purpose.

 

South Africa is blessed with some beautiful designs - some of which you have covered. The old silver crown with the prancing Springbok is, to me, the most stunningly beautiful of all South African coins. The design is almost alive with life and the exuberance of living.

 

As to your idea for a sticky - an excellent idea and I think the thread on token coins started by "pinkx" some time ago should also be a sticky because it carries some very valuable information on it. To me that is the raw essence of our hobby in action which BoB should regard as a valuable asset as, in a few years to come, coin books (printed or electronic) could well refer to this BoB forum as their source.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Edited by ndoa18

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jwither

Scott,

 

Do you make a distinction between coin collectors and numismatists or not? If yes, then I can agree with your definition but not otherwise.

 

The primary distinction between a collector and SPECULATOR (aka, "investor") is whether financial considerations drive the acquisiiton and disposition of the coins they have bought and sold. Also, some - many - coin buyers are some of both, such as I am. There are very few coin buyers who have any collection of "substantial" value who have little to no interest in the economic value of their collection. In other words, they do not view it as a substitute among alternative forms of consumption.

 

In terms of numismatist versus collector if you make this distinction, most collectors have only a passing interest in the history of their coins. The same applies to other technical aspects such as minting and striking characteristics if that is part of your definition. And of those who are interested in the latter, for many or even most of this minority, their primary interest is probably to avoid buying fakes.

 

I can tell you that for the coins I buy, I am not buying them just for financial considerations but its definitely part of it. For one thing, I am not "rich" though I can afford to spend more on my collection than most people can. But I would consider it a waste of money and therefore, MY LIFE to spend the kind of money I have on my collection without any real prospect of recovering my outlay (or more) at some future date.

 

In terms of a factor such as the census, I am interested or not in terms of whether my coins are hard to find or not. The census is one way of making this assessment though less so for coins outside the US. I agree with you that owning a "widget" coin which is worth a lot of money but which is common or very common especially if it is just "rare" in high grade is no accomplishment at all. To a certain extent, I also consider this true even for scarce or rare coins if anyone who has the money to buy them can do so either when they want to or simply by getting enough prominent dealers to find it for them. For example, anyone who wants to buy an 1804 US Dollar (three varieties with 15 known) can do so IF they are willing to pay enough for it. But that is not always true of all scarce or rare coins. One of the reasons I like my coins as much as I do is that its not possible for most others to find and buy them like that. Coins which anyone can buy at will have no interest to me at all.

 

For example, while I like my South African coins a lot still, I actually like them less than before versus the other series I collect because they are now either easier or much easier to find than before. The reason for this is because they are worth more.

 

I also agree with you that those "investors" who are paying what I would call "stupid money" or exorbitant prices with little to no regard to the collectible merits of what they buy not only will enjoy them much less, but they are also likely to either lose money or big money when they go to resell them. The best approach to collecting and getting satisfaction from your collection is to buy what you like and can afford, choose what you buy wisely in terms of quality for what it cost and from a financial perspective, buy scarce and desirable material that is reasonably priced.

Edited by jwither

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Pierre_Henri

 

For example, while I like my South African coins a lot still, I actually like them less than before versus the other series I collect because they are now either easier or much easier to find than before. The reason for this is because they are worth more.

 

 

Please explain?

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jwither
Please explain?

 

When I resumed collecting in 1998, I could hardly find any South African coins worth buying. In retrospect, there were two reasons for this. The first is that I simply did not know where to buy them which would mean that these coins were more available (somewhat) than I thought they were but I just did not know about it. The second is that because prices were so low, I believe that many sellers refused to accept those prices and because many or most buyers would not pay more, little was available. Its possible that like now, many coins sold for a lot more than public prices through private sales but if so, I would not have any insight into that.

 

Ever since the Remick sale, that is at least when the prices and supply for Union coins started to increase and this is reflected in the census populations. Most of the census populations for Union are not that large, but they are still much larger in most instances than pre-2007. (Some such as the 1923 1D are absolutely large versus most coins except the Mandela issues, some ZAR and many coins from the United States.) ZAR are also more available now but I have not noticed as much of a difference.

 

Now that prices are more or a lot more, I am not as willing to spend this money on these coins versus others as I was before. For those who live in South Africa, it is a non-issue because these coins are your primary frame of reference. In the document that I wrote, I cover a principle I call "demand concentration" which includes the lopsided propensity of collectors to mostly or even exclusively buy and collect coins from their home country. Its presumbably as true or almost as true of South Africa as it is of the United States and elsewhere. If this is correct, then the recent price increases in Union coins are not going to change your mind in buying these coins like it will or has for me.

 

In addition to South Africa, I also collect five other series: Spanish colonial pillars, Spanish colonial "lion & castle" quarter real, Spanish issues from about 1600 to 1761 (Spanish "cross"), 1790 Austrian Netherlands Insurrection and Bolivia Republic decimal 1864-1909.

 

South African coins have increased in price a lot more than these other coins. But when evaluated by their numismatic merits, they are not as good values as these other coins now as they were before. The numismatic merits of the coins did not change, only the prices did. Its a matter of opinion of course, but no one can convince me that for the same or about the same price, that most MS ZAR, KGV or KGVI are equivalent to an AU or MS pillar, especially on the infrequent occassions when the minors are available from Peru or Bolivia. Those coins are almost impossible to find, often even in lower grades. So yes, South Africa coins are still very desirable but at current prices not as desirable as before versus what the same money can buy in other material.

 

To give you a specific example, I recently bought two 1934 Union 2/6, a PCGS XF-45 and a PCGS AU-50. I paid $90 and $200 which I consider excellent value. Recently, there was the same coin in NGC AU-55 on BoB for about $700 or $800. I would be far less willing to pay this price for that coin but I would say it is still a fair price, just too much for me. Finally, there was also the NGC MS-63 on BoB at I believe around $7500. While that is undeniably a scarce coin, I simply do not believe that it deserves a price that is about 10 times the AU-55. The difference in desirability I do not see as anywhere near that amount because the coin is scarce in any decent grade which for Union I start at XF or above. The multiple of 4 times between the AU-55 and my AU-50 is more reasonable, but I also do not believe the AU-55 should sell for four times more either. But most likely if my coin were sold from South Africa instead of the US, the actual difference would be somewhat less regardless of what either coin sold for.

 

Now comparing these 1934 2/6 to other coins from outside of South Africa, I would prefer any of them to an equivalently priced US coin though I would say that there are going to be a decent number of US coins that I would consider competitive with the MS-63 at $7500. But comparing these coins to the other coins I collect, neither the AU-55 nor the MS-63 are competitive. I do not know what these MS pillars I own would sell for now, but I bought all of them for right at $800 or less, the last one in 2007.

 

The principle I am describing in these last few paragraphs I term the "substitution factor". I apply it under four alternative scenarious and all collectors either implicitly or explicitly use it to one degree or another, whether they are aware of it or not.

Edited by jwither

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design_hibo

Before lasers, mints would cover parts of the coin die with tape and then sandblast it. The coins that were subsequently minted with these partially sandblasted dies would then have a 'matt' or 'frosted' appearance (sandblasted areas) and the covered parts would be 'glossy'. This process became popular since it enabled mints to "highlight" certain parts of the coin's design. Most mints reserved this process for proof coinage.

 

With the introduction of lasers, the process was revised since the advantage of using a laser as opposed to a sandblaster is obvious: lasers are more accurate.

 

Previous coins with similar finishes achieved without lasers were not called "Sandblasted" or "frosted"... so why did the Mint choose to label the coins as "Laser Frosted"? Anyone's guess really! To try and make sense of the marketing strategy (if any) at the South African Mint is another topic altogether.

 

I believe that the South African mint's use of the term, "Laser Frosted" was a poor decision, since it's not a common numismatic term and can be construed amongst the general public as being applied to the coin after it was minted.

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