Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
stevedel65

Mandela Coins?????

Recommended Posts

stevedel65    10
stevedel65

I am dumbstruck that people pay these ridiculous amounts of money for a coin that in my humble opinion will never reach any real collector status or am I missing the point totally :confused:

 

Look at the link and the question posed by a fellow forum member and the reply that 2000 :o of these coins was send for grading, the 5mil that was minted, what % will end in slabs,can any of the boffins that track these things maybe come up with a number that is already been graded?

 

 

2008 Birthday R5 - MS 61 NESLON MADELA R5 BIRTHDAY COIN for sale in Hartbeespoort (ID:25136752)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BumbleBee    10
BumbleBee

I don't have the figures for SACGS or PCGS but so far the NGC has grades these (not counting the laser frosted ones or proofs):

 

MS61 - 6

MS62 - 80

MS63 - 309

MS64 - 1539

MS65 - 7590

MS66 - 28204

MS67 - 6010

MS68 - 13

MS69 - 9

 

and a total of 404 in the AU grades

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevedel65    10
stevedel65

Thanx Bumblebee

 

44164 from NGC

 

Keep them coming guys it will be interesting to see the %

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MsPlod    10
MsPlod

This fellow forum member...

 

I am dumbstruck that people pay these ridiculous amounts of money for a coin that in my humble opinion will never reach any real collector status or am I missing the point totally :confused:

 

Look at the link and the question posed by a fellow forum member and the reply that 2000 :o of these coins was send for grading, the 5mil that was minted, what % will end in slabs,can any of the boffins that track these things maybe come up with a number that is already been graded?

 

 

2008 Birthday R5 - MS 61 NESLON MADELA R5 BIRTHDAY COIN for sale in Hartbeespoort (ID:25136752)

 

Could simply NOT believe the answer given to my question - it kind of left me speechless really... so never got around to following through :P

 

Very worrying that folks are getting pulled into this. Watching the bidding this morning - the lower grades of Mandela coins were roughly 200-300% more than the higher graded MS66 and MS67... !!

 

Just checked and "Yup" the MS61 is presently at R750! MS62 at R450... Poor old sken!!

 

BIZARRE!! :eek:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BumbleBee    10
BumbleBee

These things are being marketed as "Rare Grades" and NOT as rare coins, the people buying these things are not coin collectors but rather Grade Collectors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevedel65    10
stevedel65

MsPlod

 

I believe this whole situation will be very damaging to the "coin investment industry" and our fascinating hobby,because a lot of people are buying these things with expectations that (again in my humble opinion) will not give them the returns that was promised by the sellers and we will lose their interest as soon as this hype start to collapse

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
kyle2    10
kyle2

Hey Bumble, you've just coined a phrase. : "Grade Collectors!" :P

Waaaaah haha aha hah!:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kit W    10
Kit W

The controvery around Mandela coins is "exhausting" to say the least - this subject has been discussed with all sharing their personal opinions. At the end of the day the Madiba coins continue to attract astronomical bids - make one think!!

stevede165 has used two words 'INVESTMENT" & 'HOBBY" that, now, seem to be very closely related

 

Thanks for the thread

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BumbleBee    10
BumbleBee

Lets take a quick look at this, the coin that started this thread sold for R750, if the people out there continue paying these prices for coins that are minted in the millions and would rather collect grades than coins then us coin collectors can snap up bargains like this.... Silver Coins - BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED 1962 CROWN (50c) was sold for R210.00 on 20 Aug at 14:16 by Gecko Coins in Port Elizabeth (ID:25129327)

 

This is a 48 year old coin still in the same condition as it came from the mint with a total mintage of only 24378 of which 3844 were proofs. Think about it, there are already twice as many Birthday R5 coins graded by NGC alone and most of them selling for many times more than this 1962 50c, easily one of the most beautiful circulation coins ever to be minted in the RSA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevedel65    10
stevedel65

Well, I have just decided also to get on the #@/*& Mandela boat,so here goes;)

 

"EXCLUSIVE ONLY TO FORUM MEMBERS" ULTRA ULTRA ULTRA RARE 90TH BIRTHDAY MANDELA COIN First time on BOB"NOT GRADED" "NOT SLABBED" " NOT UNCURCULATED" History available that it has at least paid for 3 x bread,2 x colddrinks,Handed to carwatches on at least 4 occasions ,have a trackrecord of twice through a slotmachine and visited a local schools`s tuckshop.

PICTURE NOT AVAILABLE (GENERIC CAN BE USED FROM YOUR POCKET CHANGE)

FOR THE VERY LOW PRICE OF R10000.00 (BUY NOW) :D

SHIPPING CONDITIONS

 

WILL HAND DELIVER ANYPLACE IN THE COUNTRY

 

If BOB allow the sale I will give them 20%;););)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4kids    10
4kids
Lets take a quick look at this, the coin that started this thread sold for R750, if the people out there continue paying these prices for coins that are minted in the millions and would rather collect grades than coins then us coin collectors can snap up bargains like this.... Silver Coins - BRILLIANT UNCIRCULATED 1962 CROWN (50c) was sold for R210.00 on 20 Aug at 14:16 by Gecko Coins in Port Elizabeth (ID:25129327)

 

This is a 48 year old coin still in the same condition as it came from the mint with a total mintage of only 24378 of which 3844 were proofs. Think about it, there are already twice as many Birthday R5 coins graded by NGC alone and most of them selling for many times more than this 1962 50c, easily one of the most beautiful circulation coins ever to be minted in the RSA.

 

 

Bumblebee, At least some of us are on the right track. I am sick and tired reading about Mandela 90th Birthday coins and the scam that surrounds this piece and how BidorBuy willy-nilly allow this to continue. Whilst the buyers with lots of money to throw away and no brains or common sense chase these parking attendant tokens it gives us opportunity to buy at relatively cheap prices true numismatic and future investment pieces.

 

THEY HAVE ALL BEEN WARNED, OVER AND OVER....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4kids    10
4kids
Well, I have just decided also to get on the #@/*& Mandela boat,so here goes;)

 

"EXCLUSIVE ONLY TO FORUM MEMBERS" ULTRA ULTRA ULTRA RARE 90TH BIRTHDAY MANDELA COIN First time on BOB"NOT GRADED" "NOT SLABBED" " NOT UNCURCULATED" History available that it has at least paid for 3 x bread,2 x colddrinks,Handed to carwatches on at least 4 occasions ,have a trackrecord of twice through a slotmachine and visited a local schools`s tuckshop.

 

PICTURE NOT AVAILABLE (GENERIC CAN BE USED FROM YOUR POCKET CHANGE)

 

FOR THE VERY LOW PRICE OF R10000.00 (BUY NOW) :D

 

SHIPPING CONDITIONS

 

WILL HAND DELIVER ANYPLACE IN THE COUNTRY

 

If BOB allow the sale I will give them 20%;););)

 

 

 

They may as well allow this listing as there is nothing different to what this would be to what they allow in any case pure thievery! At least you will not overcharge on your postage...LOL..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
qball    10
qball
Bumblebee, At least some of us are on the right track. I am sick and tired reading about Mandela 90th Birthday coins and the scam that surrounds this piece and how BidorBuy willy-nilly allow this to continue. Whilst the buyers with lots of money to throw away and no brains or common sense chase these parking attendant tokens it gives us opportunity to buy at relatively cheap prices true numismatic and future investment pieces.

 

THEY HAVE ALL BEEN WARNED, OVER AND OVER....

 

Actually, as per previous thread we have started contacting sellers who are listing these coins to refrain from using terms such as "investment coin", "rare" or "unique" etc. However, if the grade is rare, which it currently is, this does not amount to misrepresentation in our opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BumbleBee    10
BumbleBee
parking attendant tokens

 

:D:D:D:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
qball    10
qball
They may as well allow this listing as there is nothing different to what this would be to what they allow in any case pure thievery! At least you will not overcharge on your postage...LOL..

 

I would caution anyone who thinks about doing such listings, we will not tolerate such behaviour on the site to prove a point. Making accusations of theft, fraud and other serious criminal offences has considerable legal ramifications and should not be bandied about or used lightly.

 

We have been fairly successful in getting the co-operation of most of the sellers regarding these items. We also do not believe this is blatant fraud, as many seller simply offer their opinion on what they believe about the item. However, once we have explained to them the possible repercussions or perceptions this can create, they understand and have agreed to assist us in this regard. Please be aware that it may take some time for teh changes to filter through.

 

Please also note, we will not tolerate "flaming" on the forum, inciting other users or any irresponsible actions on the part of sellers and buyers on our site.

 

The process going forward is to alert communitywatch@bidorbuy.co.za, and we will address the issue with the seller.

 

Thank you

Cuan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4kids    10
4kids
Actually, as per previous thread we have started contacting sellers who are listing these coins to refrain from using terms such as "investment coin", "rare" or "unique" etc. However, if the grade is rare, which it currently is, this does not amount to misrepresentation in our opinion.

 

 

Cuan, There is no such thing as a "Rare Grade" unless you are referring to a rare coin such as the Coarse Beard Burgers Pond currently on offer here on BOB, Not only is it a rarity given the surviving unmounted pieces available but also a rare grade and it is highly unlikely that another 3 or 4 million such rare grades will surface that is currently in circulation, handed out as parking attendant tokens etc, See my point.

 

The same seller also have a rare 1893 2 Shillings graded F15 but is it not advertised as a "Rare grade" because the seller is not foollish and knows that he would soon loose his standing as a reputable seller here in BoB.

 

It is therefore my opinion that this is a misrepresentation if you only apply mere common sense and the test would be "What would a normal reasonable informed person think under the same circumstances"

 

This small extract from the "Roman Dutch Law"

 

 

Every man has the right not to be injured in his person or property by the negligence of another, and that involves a duty to exercise due and reasonable care. The question whether, in any given situation a reasonable man would have foreseen the likelihood of harm and governed his conduct accordingly, is one to be decided in each case upon consideration of all the circumstances..

 

With this I leave all the forum readers to ponder on and will from now on never comment on the Mandela Parking Meter Tokens again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
qball    10
qball

Unfortunately that is debatable, as someone can consider only 6 coins at a specific grade as a rare grade (not a rare coin - 2 very different things), as there may currently only be 6 graded at that grade (this would be fact), and considering there are 5 million coins... this would appear to be a reasonable assumption, even though this number may change in the future. We are of the opinion that this does not amount to misrepresentation nor is it a blatant attempt to mislead anyone. We do understand what many of you are saying so to avoid any further complications we are contacting the sellers about their listings.

 

Not to mention the listing started at R1, the bidders determined the final selling amount.

 

It's your decision whether you wish to post on this topic or not, all contributions are welcome, but throwing around accusations of thievery etc. is not encouraged, particularly when there is no evidence of this, this is one's opinion.

 

I have personally spoken to the seller and asked him not to list like this, and he understands where the concerns are coming from and will hopefully not list the coins in this manner again.

 

Thank you.

 

Kind regards

Cuan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
eZethu Coins    10
eZethu Coins
Well, I have just decided also to get on the #@/*& Mandela boat,so here goes;)

 

"EXCLUSIVE ONLY TO FORUM MEMBERS" ULTRA ULTRA ULTRA RARE 90TH BIRTHDAY MANDELA COIN First time on BOB"NOT GRADED" "NOT SLABBED" " NOT UNCURCULATED" History available that it has at least paid for 3 x bread,2 x colddrinks,Handed to carwatches on at least 4 occasions ,have a trackrecord of twice through a slotmachine and visited a local schools`s tuckshop.

 

PICTURE NOT AVAILABLE (GENERIC CAN BE USED FROM YOUR POCKET CHANGE)

 

FOR THE VERY LOW PRICE OF R10000.00 (BUY NOW) :D

 

SHIPPING CONDITIONS

 

WILL HAND DELIVER ANYPLACE IN THE COUNTRY

 

If BOB allow the sale I will give them 20%;););)

 

I did a listing of a coin as you described and it fetched a good price - yes slightly higher than the value, but still very reasonable - and I will not loose much sleep over the deal - like it should have:

 

Special Circulation & Commemorative Coins - SA Decimal - 2008 Mandella Birthday R5 - made it though to circulation!!! was sold for R7.00 on 19 Aug at 19:46 by eZethu Coins in Port Elizabeth (ID:24972452)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4kids    10
4kids

 

It's your decision whether you wish to post on this topic or not, all contributions are welcome, but throwing around accusations of thievery etc. is not encouraged, particularly when there is no evidence of this, this is one's opinion.

 

I have personally spoken to the seller and asked him not to list like this, and he understands where the concerns are coming from and will hopefully not list the coins in this manner again.

 

Thank you.

 

Kind regards

Cuan

 

 

I have been privy and part to many conversations outside the BoB forum where sellers "Not the one mentioned above" boast about the huge profits they make on selling these pieces where one even made a comment such as, "it's like stealing from a blind mute"

 

Needless to say I've put him in his place and as a result will never deal with this seller, ever again.

 

Unfortunately I will not debate the issue further on the forum and will leave this up to others but will still continue my quest to enlighten and teach.

 

Kind Regards

Jan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
qball    10
qball

As long as there is a demand for such items you will never be able to eradicate such sellers. As long as they stay within the bounds of the law, technically there is very little that can be done about it now. It is not illegal to sell such items, and that is why, as soon as the CP Act comes into being, this will be policed more strictly as there will now be guidelines and regulations in place specifically addressing such things. We are confident that the majority of sellers are not trying to defraud anyone, or misrepresent the items, but you will always get one or two who will try their luck, but their days will be numbered.

 

As I said you are welcome to contribute, to teach, educate and enlighten members of the community.

 

Kind regards

Cuan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither    10
jwither
I am dumbstruck that people pay these ridiculous amounts of money for a coin that in my humble opinion will never reach any real collector status or am I missing the point totally :confused:

 

Look at the link and the question posed by a fellow forum member and the reply that 2000 :o of these coins was send for grading, the 5mil that was minted, what % will end in slabs,can any of the boffins that track these things maybe come up with a number that is already been graded?

 

 

2008 Birthday R5 - MS 61 NESLON MADELA R5 BIRTHDAY COIN for sale in Hartbeespoort (ID:25136752)

 

There are several posts here for which I have comments to add, but I will do so with yours since it is the first one.

 

You are far too kind with your sentiments. There is no need to be humble with a price forecast because the current prices are patently absurd. To give everyone here an indication of how large these census numbers are, the only ones which are larger are a handful of US Morgan dollars. But at least with these coins, they are 19th century silver sized crowns. Even the Mandela 2000 5R, which had a populaiton of over 2000 the last time I checked, has a census population which is larger than most US coins and most of the latter are common and not remotely scarce. Given these facts, what difference does it make from a financial standpoint what final proportion ends up in a holder?

 

The reason it does not matter is because most of these buyers are not "grade collectors" and many not even collectors at all. They are likely at most casual collectors or in many instances, speculators participating in what I would describe as a national MANIA which is a miniturized version of the 1630's Dutch tulip craze. No other description better describes this irrational herding impulse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevedel65    10
stevedel65
There are several posts here for which I have comments to add, but I will do so with yours since it is the first one.

 

You are far too kind with your sentiments. There is no need to be humble with a price forecast because the current prices are patently absurd. To give everyone here an indication of how large these census numbers are, the only ones which are larger are a handful of US Morgan dollars. But at least with these coins, they are 19th century silver sized crowns. Even the Mandela 2000 5R, which had a populaiton of over 2000 the last time I checked, has a census population which is larger than most US coins and most of the latter are common and not remotely scarce. Given these facts, what difference does it make from a financial standpoint what final proportion ends up in a holder?

 

The reason it does not matter is because most of these buyers are not "grade collectors" and many not even collectors at all. They are likely at most casual collectors or in many instances, speculators participating in what I would describe as a national MANIA which is a miniturized version of the 1630's Dutch tulip craze. No other description better describes this irrational herding impulse.

 

This phenomenon is not only on BOB but in general public as well,I am a business owner and people know that I am a collector and they flood our offices with these Mandela R5 thinking that I will buy them because they heard somewhere that the coins are rare and valuable

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stevedel65    10
stevedel65

To quote 4 Kids

 

"Every man has the right not to be injured in his person or property by the negligence of another, and that involves a duty to exercise due and reasonable care. The question whether, in any given situation a reasonable man would have foreseen the likelihood of harm and governed his conduct accordingly, is one to be decided in each case upon consideration of all the circumstances.. "

 

It will be interesting to see what happens if something like this turns up for litigation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest   
Guest Guest

My blacklist grows

 

Oh wow.. I might get hooked on this.. another with JUST a ZAR750 reserve... same seller as Brands post two above this.

 

2008 Birthday R5 - YES MS62 WS @LOW START for sale in Johannesburg (ID:25066059)

 

MS62 WS (With Scratches?) mmm will have to get my scissors out and deface the MS66 Mandelas I have that I bought for ZAR100 .. I can't go wrong.. but then I have ethics so would rather slit my wrists.

 

But Wait! It gets better!!!

 

2008 Birthday R5 - wf-20 2008 mandela @@rare in ths low grade@@the only one on bob for sale in Johannesburg (ID:25065971)

 

WF 20.. RARE IN THIS LOW GRADE... now where is my cheque book when I really want it! (Can someone tell me what WF means?)

 

(Same seller here - one I will NEVER buy anything from on BoB)

 

and there's more.. post in South Africa to South Africa just ZAR70.. wow money does grow on trees....

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×