1893 Halfcrown Forgery from China on ebay- Beware !!!!

[geejay50 10]

Hello all,

 

Please be careful of attractive 1893 Halfcrowns advertised on ebay by Chinese sellers see item numbers 250677542920 (currently running), 286543582831 (ended $405- eight bids), Another member of Bob sent me an email reporting this as well.

 

The way to spot the forgery is in the shape of the 3 in the date, the upper portion has a sharp corner as oposed to the genuine coin that has an equal top and lower component.It may be an 1897 Halfcrown that has been modified.

 

Another more subtle point I noticed was that the beard on the cheek ends in an abnormally sharply curved line from above down as if Paul Kruger has shaved that part.

 

Please see pics below.

 

Condolences to the poor sucker who fell for it.

 

From my experience in the past, ebay doesnt have the structures in place to stop these forgeries from being sold so the seller will not be punished. Bid or buy is far superior in this regard.

 

Hats off to you guys Cuan!!!!

 

Georg

 

[BumbleBee 10]

Thanks for that handy bit of info. Personally I will not buy anything of value from a China based seller, these folks are master craftsmen and their reputation for producing high quality fakes precedes them.

[geejay50 10]

Hi Bumblebee,

 

Point taken, the particular seller has 8 ratings and is selling non SA coins for the rest. So few ratings would also make one suspicious.

 

The sellers from Hong Kong are in my experience excellent and dont take chances. Other sellers from the mainland with many ratings to defend are also fine. We must learn to pick up the forgeries before we bid.

 

I have seen a well known forged 1892 SS Crown offered for sale from the mainland as a copy and with an F stamped on the Obverse like Eli Levine used to do.

 

There were some Z pond forgeries of 1894 and 1897 ZAR Ponden put on sale from a single seller in Greece. They were unc coins and many fell into the trap.

 

I was sold an 1897 Pond from a certain seller in the UK recently that turned into a fake. Even sending him literaure did not get my money back. The delays involved did not even get me to negative rate him. Paypal did not rule in my favour in the dispute that I filed.

 

Crooks are everywhere.

 

Georg

[BumbleBee 10]

On that note, sellers also need to be on the lookout for buyers that use fake Proof of Payments. I was chatting with a good friend yesterday who almost fell into this trap. It appears that this buyer placed bids on one hell of a lot of items with no intention to pay just to see who would send the items in good faith or who he could con with a fake PoP. This buyer even phones you and has a lengthy chat about collecting coins just to get you more comfortable with him.

 

So, it appears that we have crooks on both sides.

 

Reminds me of a story I once heard of the car thief getting hi-jacked.

[4kids 10]

Hi Georg. I spotted the coin and noticed from the abbreviation seller name and ratings that the second highest bidder was known to me A quick phone call to him saved him a lot of money. "just hope he remembers when I make him an offer on his Farthing he is holding at the moment..lol..

 

a Few weeks ago As I got to my office at 5:00am in the morning there was also a 1895 Half Crown listed in similar condition. I quickly asked the seller if he would guarantee the item as genuine, closed the page and when I returned the item was deleted.

 

Georg, By the way you can get your credit card issuer to reverse the transaction, just provide them with proof. I know, have been there before as well.

[Rare NotesCoins 11]

You would think that would be it. But I recieved an email fronm the seller that was more shocking than the fake coin

 

If BOB would allow me here is his email to me

 

""Hi

please see the attachment ,i will put the raw coin into PCGS box

the price is $200 per coin ,including shipping

i accept paypal

 

 

thanks""

 

and when I asked him if he was legite and if he was out to sell fakes and take peoples money he answered

 

"Hi

don't worry ,we can deal with paypal ,and give you ship checking number ,i do busniess many years ,i have many buyer ,i wont cheat you 200 dollar ,i would like to do busniess with you for a long time

the grade you can tell me what would you like ,then i will make the pcgs label ,after i complete i can send you the photo ,after you see the photo then pay me money ,it's ok?

 

 

 

best wishes

 

thanks"

 

You know how scary it is when he askes you what grade you want. Hell guys be very carefull.

 

He send me a photo of a graded 1893 Halfcrown in a PCGS holder and asked me to pick a grade.

 

BE VERY CAREFULL!!!!!!!

[Bellcoin 10]

Hi All

 

The most scary part is:

 

YOU CAN ORDER COINS - WHAT EVER YOU WANT AND IN WHAT EVER AMOUNT!!!

 

A simple internet search in the RIGHT places and you have a supplier for coins, NGC holders, PCGS holders and you can specify the grade!

 

Coins are being sent in the markets with DETAILS grades, they make a fake and give it eg: AU55 DETAILS - so much easier to deceive!! I have seen a photo from a coin operation with a box full of slabbed coins - every single one AU55 DETAILS.

 

Scary Stuff, but it seems to impact the US market the most, thankfully.

 

Cheers

[EishGK 10]

I was so tempted to bid on this coin but it was the poor ratings the kept me at bay. Phew!!!! Thanks Georg for that astute observation. Amatures like me really rely on experience like yours.

[HR_COINS 10]

Thats why I always verify serial numbers of graded coins on the NGC site. It's a very quick process. If the seller does not want to supply you the serial no. be suspicious.

[Little Miss Muffet 41]

Has someone reported this to Ebay???

[Rare NotesCoins 11]

The good news for NGC graded coins is that they now photograph all their coins. If you buy a coin you can verify it by checking on their site if that is indeed their coin.

 

PCGS does not photograph. Just checking the serial number wont help as they are clever and will use a coin that has the same serial number and the same grade and year. You might think you are safe, but if you dont know what it looks like you could loose allot of money

 

Be

Ever

Watchfull

Auctions

Regarding

Ebay

[Mike Klee 12]

Hi!

Now here is something to think about: although it is wonderful to have this forged coin brought to our attention, it is maybe not too clever of us to be pointing out why this coin is a forgery. I have another collecting interest where forgeries/fakes are a real problem. Collectors in this category specifically will not discuss how the forgery/fake differs from the genuine article because the manufacturers of such forgeries/fakes will deliberately display an article on their forum, query whether it is the "real thing" and thereafter rectify any flaws in the next generation of these articles based on the feed-back received.

Soon, the fakes are not discernible from the genuine product.

We might all be doing ourselves a favour if we also deliberately refrain from pointing out mistakes these forgers have made on our coins.

Mike Klee

[deonfourie 10]

Sunlight or secrets?

 

Mike makes a really interesting point - is it best to disseminate information about fakes (sunlight being the best disinfectant etc) or do we guard the information?

 

My personal view is that you broadcast the information as widely as possible. Yeah, the forgers learn from it and get smarter, but it means that they have to scrap a hell of a lot of expensive product every time a new "proving point" is identified.

 

If you jealously guard the information you end up with a tiny elite of collectors and dealers in possession of really important information that should be available to... well, everybody. I guess I don't like elites - pastimes like coin collecting should be democratised, and that is one of the wonderful things about this forum, that anybody can get a login and communicate with some of the most knowledgeable coin/token specialists in the world.

 

And if the forgeries end up indistinguishable from the genuine article? Well, there's always something that gives away a forgery - that's how we know it's not genuine! But do we want that information to be generally available or in the possession of a small number of people in the industry/hobby...?

[Guest Guest]

Is there a technological answer?

 

Hi Deon, Mike

 

Isn't the common denominator the origin of the coin being sold - ie China.

 

Wouldn't a good starting point be to ban any Chinese based seller from selling coins on BoB? For G-o-d's sake how would a Chinese seller get hold of a rare S African coin in the first place?

 

Secondly, with today's technology is there not some sort of simple scanning process where rare coins can be authenticated by simply checking their metal make up. I have absolutely no doubt that these forgeries would have a minimal amount of silver - and we know what it should be. We also know the unique mix of silver with other alloys (from authentic masters) which I think would be almost impossible for these fraudsters to replicate. This secondary process, together with evidence of doctoring the real deal, could be used to verify extremely rare and valuable coins. (I would not include a Mandela VF25 in this category regardless of what sellers claim!)

 

For example, in the pest control business (an apt comparison!), they now have scanners that measure moisture in the walls - and from that they can "see" and digitally record white ant infestations without even touching the wall.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

[Mike Klee 12]

Hi!

The Chinese buy genuine graded South African rarities in the same way that we do, then copy them. I have a large collection of South African patterns - many slabbed, many unslabbed - which have been bought from all the well-known auction houses, and I really thought that the remaining patterns would become less available - with a corresponding increase in prices.

Well......all I have seen has been a continual flow of patterns into the marketplace, with many of these offerings coming from China. I have absolutely no doubt that many of these "slabbed" patterns are fake.

Also, the Chinese sell fakes not just in China but, I believe, certainly in many other South East Asian countries...and maybe even Europe and the USA?

Mike Klee

[Bellcoin 10]

Chinese Counterfeits - Fake Coins Made in China - Fake Slabs Holding Fake Coins

 

Click this link!

 

Maybe not NGC or PCGS - and do look at the other pics!

[geejay50 10]

Hi,

 

I have tried to report this to ebay again , but they dont seem to have a category for forged coins in their electronic options for report this item. You dont report to a person. There are another two such forgeries listed recently. Its a joke.

 

Georg

[deonfourie 10]

Technological solution

 

Mmmm I looked into this a couple of years ago; there are portable machines that analyse metallic alloys, but they typically cost R250 000 upwards - although they might have come down in price since then. And although they are supposed to be non-invasive, no manufacturer seems prepared to guarantee that if you point it at a proof coin and press the button, it won't leave a pit or a mark, no matter how small and insignificant.

 

In addition, although we know from the Mint what the precious metal content of a coin is supposed to be, anyone who has ever had any connection with the metals trade knows that the published content does not always reflect the final composition of an individual coin - and in any case many of these analysing machines can be fooled by plated surfaces or base metal cores. Could lead to an awful lot of false positives.

 

Cleaning up eBay can be done - a couple of years ago eBay was awash with fake Hermes, Vuitton, Dior handbags etc, but the luxury goods manufacturers took eBay to court in France and eBay was found jointly liable for selling knock-offs, fined, and forced to publish an apology on the eBay.fr home page for three months! As a result eBay now dip-samples "high risk" auctions (e.g. a brand-new seller in Guanzhong selling 25 x $20,000 Hermes bags) , and fake sellers don't last for more than a couple of hours before their accounts are shut down.

 

So now you just need to find a ripped-off customer and a sympathetic judge... to put the squeeze on Da 'Bay

[ZARBOY 10]

Hi

 

In September 2004, members of the American Numismatic Society (ANA) reported seeing counterfeit NGC PCGS holders (also known as "slabs") at the Long Beach Coin Show.

 

 

 

Members of the Beverly Hills Coin Club (BHCC) an affiliate club-member of the ANA, had reported counterfeit coin slabs as early as December, 1998. As a direct result, BHCC partnered with ACCGS, manned by unpaid club volunteers, as a pre-certification service for coins and to "guarantee the authenticity of slabs or Third Party Grader holders".

 

 

 

More counterfeit PCGS and NGC holders were reported on Ebay in 2005 and later years, but NGC did not address the problem until 2008, after high-quality counterfeit holders had been seen and purchased on eBay.

 

 

 

Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) published the following acknowledgment on January 7, 2008:

"NGC has identified and confirmed that (counterfeit replicas) of its holder has been produced.......The holder has been seen housing counterfeit dollar or foreign crown size coins. While the enclosed coins are also counterfeit, the label information matches the coin type enclosed. The label information is copied from actual NGC certification labels, and the certification information therefore will match the NGC database. Most frequently, Trade Dollars and Bust Dollars are found, although Flowing Hair Dollars and foreign coins have also been seen. A range of grades is also represented."

 

NGC and PCGS counterfeit holders have been reported in eBay forums and more may be reported by other firms and individuals. The PCGS website notes that they "anticipate that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit holders". Third party graders are taking measures to resist counterfeiting, however, counterfeit holders may multiply and improve over time.

 

 

Numismatic Guaranty Corporation and PCGS offer no reimbursement liability for the prices paid for coins in their counterfeit holders. Both firms have online links to verify the holder numbers. However, many buyers may not be computer users or may be unaware of such links. Caution is advised when purchasing coins in PCGS and Numismatic Guaranty Corporation holders as the seller can disclaim liability due to the "third party" nature of the counterfeit holder. Additionally, it may be too late to request refunds from eBay sellers before holders can be verified as counterfeits. Many coins are posted on eBay and through other venues "as is" and therefore with no return privileges.

 

 

Good luck all and please, PLEASE, please stay away from Chinese sellers!!!

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Thomas van der Spuy

ZARBOY

[ThomasMueller 10]

Hi!

The Chinese buy genuine graded South African rarities in the same way that we do, then copy them.

 

Yes, the original coins these forgers have are called "host coins" in China.

 

I have a large collection of South African patterns - many slabbed, many unslabbed - which have been bought from all the well-known auction houses, and I really thought that the remaining patterns would become less available - with a corresponding increase in prices.

Well......all I have seen has been a continual flow of patterns into the marketplace, with many of these offerings coming from China. I have absolutely no doubt that many of these "slabbed" patterns are fake.

 

As far as I know many ZAR patterns were made in Germany. But they are very scare here (in Germany).

 

Also, the Chinese sell fakes not just in China but, I believe, certainly in many other South East Asian countries...and maybe even Europe and the USA?

 

Nearly every old Chinese coin coming to Germany since about two or three years is fake. These are the words of a coin dealer, who is over 60 years in coin business (he is now over 80 years old!).

 

Most modern Chinese forgeries have problems with the edge, some with the weight and most forgeries have problems with the patina. A real old patina looks different as these new pseudo old patina created with some chemical agents....

 

Off topic: Nokia was not able to detect forgeries from their own "genuine" products...