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xsiandreas

1928 Sixpence... Can there be more than one???

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xsiandreas    10
xsiandreas

I just noticed that Heritage is auctioning a 1928 Sixpence. None are supposed to exist. I would like to know what other collectors think and whether other specimens could surface. I wonder why it was struck in .925 silver as opposed to the usual .800 silver. Was there an intention to switch to sterling silver? Looks like its has become impossible to have a complete SA Union set...

 

 

This is what Heritage has to say:

 

George V Specimen Sixpence 1928, KM16.1 for type but an unlisted date, SP63 NGC, Reeded Edge, struck in .925 (sterling) silver; bold strike, the date very sharp and clear, squared-off rims, light silvery gold iridescent toning. Totally original surfaces. This phenomenal coin possesses more eye appeal than we can probably communicate by photographic images, a sparkle that no camera can capture. Hern's Handbook (2009 edition) lists this as S165 and then comments "None Minted," either in proof or for commercial circulation. Previously, only 5 dates were known for this short-lived design type, with "pence" written out, in this denomination. As well, the other dates were struck in .800-fine silver. This fabulous coin, which obviously is unique and in sterling silver, turned up in the United Kingdom only recently. Its fineness alone indicates that it was specially minted. Its appearance should excite every collector of South African coins, because British colonial and commonwealth issues have been studied extensively and thoroughly catalogued, without any previous scholar or collector ever having a hint that this date exists. An important discovery. Estimate: $200,000 - $300,000.

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EWAAN Galleries    10
EWAAN Galleries

interesting that the coin has a bid of $100000-00.

 

Great news for South African Coins.. Definitely going to a whole different level

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jwither    10
jwither

Given that the prior buyer paid 4400 GBP for it just last year, they have already made a windfall.

 

To my knowledge, this is a record price for any Union coin, by a landslide. The highest prices I have ever seen for a single Union coin are about $23,000 USD. The latest was the 1936 Farthing sold on BoB and the other was a 1926 red proof farthing sold by Randburg.

 

Whether this is good or not is matter of whether first, someone owns them already and what they own and second, whether they care about their coins and collection mostly as an "investment". If the answer is yes, then it is good news.

 

If the answer is no, then that will potentially make more coins less affordable to more collectors.

 

I agree that as a landmark sale, this increases the profile of South African coins, particularly among collectors and "investors" outside of South Africa. How much it will translate into rising prices for other Union coins is an open question.

 

If it does, then I see more coins being priced out of the reach of the "typical" collector. I'm not sure how that applies today, but its a trend that I see.

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

I hate to say I told you so...!

 

The 1928 might end up with a "book" valud of R1MM but it has the added obstacle that no Union coin (to my knowledge) has ever sold for anywhere near that amount. The highest prices for a public sale known to me are about $23,000 USD for both the 1923 NGC MS-66 Sovereign in the Millenium Sale and the 1926 proof red 1/4D sold by Randburg Coin.

 

Well, well, well - three months later I would like to rub your nose in those words spoken in May BUT as they say "the proof is in the pudding" and we will have to wait for the final result.

 

Whatever - as the world gets poorer the INFORMATIVE gets richer...

 

Pierre

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jwither    10
jwither

Yes, making these claims that I do and which most others do not carries some risk. Given some of the opinions I have seen expressed on this forum on other coin prices, I expect many opportunities to return the favor in the future.

 

:)

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri

No need to return the favour ...

 

I too have made some, how should I term it, eronious (?) calls on prices that I thought some other coins recently sold on BoB would fetch.

 

I thought, for example, that the 1936 MS farthing would go for much more, but will stick to my guns and say that he of she (the lucky buyer) will sell that coin for double the amount in two years time -

 

You can rub my nose in that if I am wrong but I am sure that only a little upswing in the world (and obviously SA) economy is needed for my prophecy to materialize. Not many people have R100 000 to spend on coins at the moment, but those that do and those that are willing to dig deeper into their pockets will be richly rewarded.

 

I for one is putting my money where my mouth is and are bidding on almost all the better grades George V South African graded silver coins available on BoB att the moment - my best money is on the 1926 Half Crown currently being offered. Mark my words, there is going to be very fierce competition on that coin.

 

I am also waiting for the following UNGRADED coins to rear their welcome heads on BoB: Farthing 1930 (ungraded in at least VF condition - I only have a F). Sixpence 1923 (ungraded in at least VF condition - I only have a F), Two Shilling 1923 (ungraded in at least VF condition - I only have a F)

 

Sounds funny/silly but after 2 years of seriously collecting Union of SA Coins, and having almost everything else, including the full 1931 proof set, I still struggle to get some fairly ordenary coins in collectable condition...

 

Hell, I think I must start to collect something else that will be better for my blood pressure!

 

Regards

 

Pierre

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jwither    10
jwither

I think the reason that the 1936 farthing sold for as little as it did (yes, little) is because in the minds of other potential buyers, there is the question of whether the coin is a proof or a business strike. As a circulation strike, I could easily see selling it for $100,000+.

 

This was the same reason for my sceptcism on the 1928 6D. But apparently, the bidder is not. I previously bought a set of three 1952 silver plated (bronze) about 18 months ago. But they are unlisted and I had no way to get them authenticated so that the grading services would grade them. So I sent them back. Graded, they could have easily been worth $10,000 or more because they must either be unique or nearly so.

 

As for some of the coins you are looking for, I do not consider them especially scarce, especially in those grades. The 1926 2/6 is absolutely a scarce coin but I have seen enough in lower grades. The 1923 2/ is an underrated coin in my opinion. I have not seen decent specimens very often.

 

The 1930 farthing is not particularly scarce. Its not common but much more common than most people think and this is supported both by the census data and the frequency I see them for sale. I would absolutely not "chase" this coin. I have had multiple opportunities to buy that coin but had better uses for my money. If you want one now, the last time I checked, Baldwin's had one listed for sale on their website. A coin like the 1939 1D which I just bought appears to be far scarcer, both from the census data and its sale frequency.

 

On a coin like the 1923 6D, its not common either, especailly in mint state. But I've owned two NGC AU (55 and 58) and seen more than enough of them.

 

The 1931 proof set is in my opinion, overpriced. And the only reaosn I can possibly think it sells for what it does is because collectors buy it as a substitute for the business strikes. It is desirable but not as scarce for its price versus other coins.

 

I am very interested in better grade KGV silver, especially 1/, 2/ and 2/6. And I consider the AU to be much better values than the MS coins though I admit I'm not convinced that prices will reflect that anytime soon. (These AU graded are absolutly far better values than more common coins in higher or much higher grades.)

 

As for the prices of South Africa coins generally, I am not convinced that an upswing will make a substantial difference unless it improves the capability of existing collectors to pay more. South African and Union coins are such a niche market in the scope of investment flows that it really makes little difference.

 

I could see more coming in, but if it does it would primarily be speculative money. I already see that in the comments posted on this forum. There is definitely a mania mentality to a small degree.

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jwither    10
jwither

I saw the 1926 2/6 listed here. The NGC AU-58 sold for about $2,000 a few years ago on Heritage and maybe it is worth double that now or somewhat more.

 

I do not know what this coin will sell for but I would be willing to pay somewhere in the vicinity of $1,000 USD or slightly more. (Disclosure: I will not be bidding on it.)

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Pierre_Henri    14
Pierre_Henri
think the reason that the 1936 farthing sold for as little as it did (yes, little) is because in the minds of other potential buyers, there is the question of whether the coin is a proof or a business strike. As a circulation strike, I could easily see selling it for $100,000+.

 

I agree with you.

 

This was the same reason for my sceptcism on the 1928 6D. But apparently, the bidder is not. I previously bought a set of three 1952 silver plated (bronze) about 18 months ago. But they are unlisted and I had no way to get them authenticated so that the grading services would grade them. So I sent them back. Graded, they could have easily been worth $10,000 or more because they must either be unique or nearly so.

I neither agree or disagree with you as I have no idea who would like to own a silver plated bronze set of three union coins dated 1952. I am sure you know the significance of the date but bar that, I really would not know.

 

The 1926 2/6 is absolutely a scarce coin but I have seen enough in lower grades. The 1923 2/ is an underrated coin in my opinion. I have not seen decent specimens very often.

Agree

 

The 1930 farthing is not particularly scarce. Its not common but much more common than most people think and this is supported both by the census data and the frequency I see them for sale. I would absolutely not "chase" this coin. I have had multiple opportunities to buy that coin but had better uses for my money. If you want one now, the last time I checked, Baldwin's had one listed for sale on their website.

I have the previlage to go through about 4 to 6 "old time collector's" Union coin collections a year and VERY seldom find a 1930 above F if ever. I dont care what the POP reports say - the 1930 Farthing from a collectors point (not necessarrily an investment point) is a coin I see perhaps once a year if I am very lucky - it is in my view on par with the 1925 Florin in terms of its regularity seen in old time collections.

A coin like the 1939 1D which I just bought appears to be far scarcer, both from the census data and its sale frequency.

I dont care about the census data, BUT you are right - I just checked my stock and I have three EF's but NOTHING near to UNC. You tought me a lesson there... I never knew they were that scarce in top form/grade.

On a coin like the 1923 6D, its not common either, especailly in mint state. But I've owned two NGC AU (55 and 58) and seen more than enough of them.

I truly have gone through 50 000 SA Union silver coins in the last 12 months and my best find for a 1923 sixpence was a VG+ with a rim nick - believe me - THAT coin is as scarce than a hen's teath in VF or better condition.

The 1931 proof set is in my opinion, overpriced. And the only reaosn I can possibly think it sells for what it does is because collectors buy it as a substitute for the business strikes. It is desirable but not as scarce for its price versus other coins.

 

I always thought that it was the other way round - collectors actually buy business strikes as substitudes for proofs - the old time SA Union collectors almost ALL prefered the Proofs above the MS-coins. But I am in your camp on this one - I seriously prefer the business strikes. Look for example at Hern and all the other older catalogues of SA coins. The proofs almost always has the higher catalgue value - it is only of very late that new voices as yours are promoting the MS strikes. I hope that future SA coin-catalogues will show this really NEW trend.

 

 

I am very interested in better grade KGV silver, especially 1/, 2/ and 2/6. And I consider the AU to be much better values than the MS coins though I admit I'm not convinced that prices will reflect that anytime soon. (These AU graded are absolutly far better values than more common coins in higher or much higher grades.)

Yes, - that is exactly my view - why buy a poorly struck and badly manhandled MS60 versus a absolutely awesome MS58 that has a whisker of wear but are so stunning that you need dark glasses to look at it?

 

As for the prices of South Africa coins generally, I am not convinced that an upswing will make a substantial difference unless it improves the capability of existing collectors to pay more. South African and Union coins are such a niche market in the scope of investment flows that it really makes little difference.

I am not sure and have no strong views on that. I, however, have seen both the good and bad times and it always follows the path of the general economy. Hopefully the Beatles were right when the sang "Even the bad times are good"

 

Nice talking to you - and hopefully you will visit SA in not the distant future

 

Pierre

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jwither    10
jwither

It sounds like you have a much better insight into the availability of "collector" Unions coins than I do, though I know you also collect many better coins.

 

I have paid little or no attention to most coins graded below AU and in most instances, mint state. But I can tell you that I have seen most dates available at auction intermittently in what I presume to be lower grades (no pictures are available). These are in group lots.

 

I believe that the census numbers reasonably represent RELATIVE scarcity, for the most part. The caveats to this are:

 

Low grade coins are under represented due to their low value.

 

KGV and QEII are under represented versus KGV due to their low value.

 

There are some coins which have privately held hoards but no one can know which ones. Given the low numbers in the census for most Union coins, even 5, 10, or 20 "high" grade specimens would represent a substantial increase.

 

For a coin like the 1D, I have seen the 1939 and 1944 (which I consider to be the two scarcest KGVI) far fewer times than most of the KGV. Partly, this is probably true because the coins are just worth less, but not always. The 1923, 1935 and 1936 I believe to relatively though not absolutely common, even in mint state. The 1929 and 1930 are not that scarce either. Even the 1926 is possibly more common.

 

On the KGV proofs, I agree with you but in my opinion, I think the prior preference was due to lack of knowldege of the scarcity of the business strikes. Everyone knew about the proofs low mintage. I have the Kaplan 1962 catalgue and saw it in there.

 

As for the 1931, I'm not knocking it but I would vastly prefer to have any of the silver coins as a circulation strike than any of the proofs, even if they were worth about the same. If I were to spend really big money on a Union coin, it would be for one of these, especially for one other than the 6P. The other four are world class rarities.

 

Thanks for your coimpliments and if I ever return to South Africa. I would like to meet members of this forum.

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