Not good for our hobby

[Guest Guest]

I am sorry but I have to say something.

 

Came across two separate listings by the same seller:

 

Here is the first: 2008 Birthday R5 - very very rare and scarce i only know of 1 ON BOB!!!!!!! 2008 MANDELA BIRTHDAY R5 COIN MS61 ws(RARE) for sale in Pretoria / Tshwane (ID:23815244)

 

Here is the second: 2008 Birthday R5 - very very rare and scarce i only know of 1 ON BOB!!!! 2008 MANDELA BIRTHDAY R5 COIN MS61 (VERY RARE) for sale in Pretoria / Tshwane (ID:23815322)

 

Some questions...

the first (unique) coin - which is the same as the line below apart from "ws" - is offered at ZAR5,000

the second (unique) coin - which is the same as the line above - is offered at a reserve of ZAR3,999

 

1) What is the only one "I know of on BoB" under these circumstances?

2) How can the "unique" coins be offered at a ZAR1,000 difference in starting price?

3) Why is the "VERY RARE" coin only offered at ZAR3,999 when the (same date and grading) "RARE" coin in ZAR5,000?

and

4) How can an MS61 be worth ZAR4000 plus when I bought an MS66, of the same coin, recently for ZAR105?

 

The Mandela coins really need to be monitored here on BoB because I am of the view that a lot of new collectors, largely ignorant, are being sucked into buying lemons.

 

And this NOT GOOD FOR OUR HOBBY

 

PS Can anyone tell me what "ws" stands for? Is it "With Scratches"?

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

[Bellcoin 10]

Could not agree more!

[lilythepink 11]

I totally agree with you, Scott. As an ignoramus when it comes to numismatics, I was taken for a ride early last year with a R5 Mandela Coin! Has made me reluctant to bid on coins ever again.

[4kids 10]

Hi Scott,

 

Perhaps now you can understand why the SA Mint is so strict about new dealers to sell their manufactured product.

 

The SAAND dealers selling on BoB " I am not a dealer" that actually sells Mandela graded 90th Birthday and others ussually and as far as I've seen would start their items at R 1-00 auctions and let the buyer decide a price.

[Guest Guest]

I guess the issue I have here is that the listings I have referred to above are clearly questionable.

 

With regards to SAAND at least on BoB we have a forum to challenge listings which do not appear to be the real deal. I know of many collectors (including myself) back in the 1970s and 1980s who bought lemons from SAAND sellers or sold (in ignorance) valuable pieces at a fraction of their real value. We had no recourse then - this forum on BoB is a great leveller.

 

I doubt any SAAND dealer would today risk their reputation online because they would know that experienced collectors (including myself) would be watching them. And that's a good thing. If I was new to collecting and needed some advise I would be working this forum. I know many collectors, including myself, would publicly give their best advice. When you go into a SAAND dealer's shop and ask for advice the private conversation does not have the benefit of this public airing - and the inherent risks which have apparently already damaged our hobby.

 

The challenge I put to the SAAND dealers in the other thread was to reach out and embrace what they call "suitcase dealers" who sell coins on auction houses like BoB. I feel strongly about this because, based on their reasoning, I am a "suitcase dealer" as I have recently sold some token coins here on BoB - this after over thirty years of collecting in my specialist area.

 

In reality I could quickly show up their individual or collective ignorance in my specialist area (East Griqualand and Griqua tokens) in an open public debate. The open challenge to debate me on the TRUTH behind the Griquatown tokens (c1820 not 1815-16) has gone unanswered for four years now.

 

I can only wonder why

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

[BumbleBee 10]

With regard to the price of Mandela coins, there is one currently listed, a 2000 PF70 POP1, I agree totally that this is a beautiful coin, the best of the best. No disrespect intended to the seller but at that price is it really an investment coin? R2,5mil can buy over 200 1oz Kruger Rands, a much better investment I think.

[MsPlod 11]

Hear hear!!

 

With regard to the price of Mandela coins, there is one currently listed, a 2000 PF70 POP1, I agree totally that this is a beautiful coin, the best of the best. No disrespect intended to the seller but at that price is it really an investment coin? R2,5mil can buy over 200 1oz Kruger Rands, a much better investment I think.

 

Absolutely agree!

[Guest Guest]

Who is behind these gradings?

 

Who is the company grading these coins... does not appear to be PCGS or NGC...

 

The common thread in all these Mandela graded coins at ridiculous prices....

 

2008 Birthday R5 - yes yes yesMS 60 NESLON MADELA R5 BIRTHDAY COIN for sale in Johannesburg (ID:23885536)

2008 Birthday R5 - very very rare and scarce i only know of 1 ON BOB!!!!!!! 2008 MANDELA BIRTHDAY R5 COIN MS61 ws(RARE) for sale in Pretoria / Tshwane (ID:23815244)

 

2008 Birthday R5 - very very rare and scarce i only know of 1 ON BOB!!!! 2008 MANDELA BIRTHDAY R5 COIN MS61 (VERY RARE) for sale in Pretoria / Tshwane (ID:23815322)

 

Is it the local grading guys?

 

Scott Balson

[4kids 10]

Hi Scott,

 

Perhaps you can be called a "Token Dealer" lol...

 

Rather consider the fact that your challenge to debate the truth about the Griquatown tokens remains unchallenged to this day as a overwhelming triumph or victory which can be attributed to your vast knowledge on this subject.

[unicoin 10]

Hi Scott

 

The grading company is SACGS.

 

But look at the this guy's shipping costs. It is a ripoff. You can place up to 1 kg. into one speed services bag (counter to counter) for about R60. He ask R100-00 for the first item and R15-00 per item after that.

Regards

Andrea

Unicoin

[lilythepink 11]

Hi Andrea - you do know that you can click on the report to CW button in the advert? If you haven't, perhaps you should! It's an absolute rip-off.

[unicoin 10]

Hi lilythepink

 

Did not know. By the way, I love your bird. Mad about them. Very cute.

Regards

[jwither 17]

With regard to the price of Mandela coins, there is one currently listed, a 2000 PF70 POP1, I agree totally that this is a beautiful coin, the best of the best. No disrespect intended to the seller but at that price is it really an investment coin? R2,5mil can buy over 200 1oz Kruger Rands, a much better investment I think.

 

R2.5 million is a collosal rip off for that coin. Even most experienced collectors would not be able to tell the difference between a 69 and a 70 except under a microscope. From a financial standpoint, buying ANY coin as a conditional rarity which is otherwise common for this type of price is a financial mistake.

[jwither 17]

I would be interested to know what kind of monitoring you propose. Personally, I do not believe it is necessary.

 

There is a dealer by the name of Scott Travers in the US who in one of his books stated that he testified in a criminal case against another dealer who sold rare coins (yes, some of them were actually rare) for exhorbitant markups. (I believe three to five times market value though these were very expensive coins.) The dealer ended up in prison, not for overcharging, but because of the claims he made.

 

Though I do not agree with that sales practice, I do not believe the dealer should have had any liability whatsoever, much less a criminal conviction. Even Mr Travers admitted that the buyers could have avoided these losses by taking a few minutes to check what these coins were selling for elsewhere. Yet they could not be bothered to do so. Anyone who cannot use even that level of common sense and due diligence, it is their own fault when this happens to them.