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RISadler

Block buyers...

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RISadler    10
RISadler

(If this has been discussed already, my apologies - a search did not return any results.)

 

Now that we have the facility to block buyers, will the BoB system use that info to, for example, auto-globally-block/blacklist buyers who are blocked by a certain number of sellers?

 

Or perhaps also state the number of blocks on the rating page of the buyer?

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MacMuffin    0
MacMuffin
(If this has been discussed already, my apologies - a search did not return any results.)

 

Now that we have the facility to block buyers, will the BoB system use that info to, for example, auto-globally-block/blacklist buyers who are blocked by a certain number of sellers?

 

Or perhaps also state the number of blocks on the rating page of the buyer?

 

I don't think this will add much value and is a good source to determine bad buyer behaviour. Looking at the current data, between March and July 6583 user-blocks occurred:

 

  • 5447 unique users have been blocked
  • No single user has been blocked more than 12 times (
  • 4 users are blocked by 12 sellers
  • 3 users are blocked by 10 sellers
  • 6 users are blocked by 8 sellers
  • 5 users are blocked by 7 sellers
  • 10 users are blocked by 5 sellers
  • 4725 users are blocked by individual sellers
  • Only 10% of users blocked are actually black-listed
  • Over 80% of the blocked users are verified and/or having good ratings (above 90%)

 

Without going into too much detail (and this is my observation) - buyers have been blocked:

  • By sellers as they offer competing/similar products
  • By sellers as they had some conflict (more emotional) with buyers
  • By sellers as the buyer did not conclude the purchase

 

Looking at those stats and looking at some sellers and their individual blocked user listed I think most of the blocks are on a emotional level - there are quite a few sellers who will go and block a buyer if they don't receive a good rating (although a seller is at fault for delayed shipping, poor communication etc).

 

We originally thought that the blocked-buyer list could be a useful metric to determine bad buyers, but honestly some of those buyers are highly rated, purchase lots of items on a daily basis and land up in a blocked list.

 

As an example: One buyer with 224 positive ratings (98%) was blocked by 12 sellers (14 purchases in total with only 4 positive, 0 neutral and 1 negative rating received). Incidentally, that buyer complained to the seller, as the seller started deleting bids as the sale did not turn out the way he wanted - and this is pretty much a trend I see in the blocking behavior.

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RISadler    10
RISadler

Thanks, Mac.

 

But I must differ from some of your interpretations... there's a lot of "rating blackmail" going on and one of the ways to prevent this is to block those types of buyers. Yes, it is "emotional", but it is also a form of protection.

 

It is also a good system to get "only-pay-after-SNC-filed" buyers out of our hair.

 

Obviously the BoB system has the "blacklist" system to deal with scammers, shills and others. Can this "blocked buyer" system then not be the equivalent for sellers to protect ourselves against bad/rude buyers?

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MacMuffin    0
MacMuffin
Can this "blocked buyer" system then not be the equivalent for sellers to protect ourselves against bad/rude buyers?

 

I don't think that providing a top-XX list of blocked buyers to sellers is the right way to go. I was quite surprised to see that in the top-20 blocked buyer list a large number of buyers did in my opinion nothing wrong (i.e. no SNCs filed, no rating issues, no strange Q&A's) - so not quite conclusive why they landed up in the first place.

 

BTW: There are 5 sellers contributing to 2500 blocked buyers (of which the majority of buyers have good ratings) - should make one think and if those sellers would do the same thing if they had to face people face-to-face instead of clicking a button - or?

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mellowred    10
mellowred

Emotion does play a huge factor in blocking people. I blocked a buyer (relatively new) who only had glowing ratings and looked wonderful on paper.

 

He bought something from me and I never heard a word from him. When filing the SNC I noticed that he had bought exactly the same item from another seller. Mine was from 1969 the one he bought (for the same price) was from 1965.

 

IF he had taken the trouble to respond to my e-mails and explained why he preferred the other item I would have happily filed the SNC as "buyer and seller agree to cancel".

 

The fact that he totally ignored me annoyed me - I rated negative and blocked him.

 

Emotional - yes. Justified in my eyes - yes. Do I wish to deal with him again - No.

 

He may turn out to be one of the buyers with 1,000s of positive ratings, but in my book he is rude and I'd rather not deal with him.

 

The fact that 5 sellers are blocking 2,500 buyers is scary. They must be huge sellers. I'd love to know who they are and take a look at their ratings ;).

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Little Miss Muffet    20
Little Miss Muffet

I think the biggest problem on Bob is ratings.

It is a necessary evil but is used indiscrimnately.(SPELLING?)

1) Buyer is angry because he thinks he has been mislead so the reaction is click negative button.Emotional yes!

2) Seller reacts revenge rates. Emotional yes!

 

Are we kids!!Apparently--I am one of the culprits but I go cold when I get a negative rating.I don't like to think that I have done something wrong or should I say let a buyer down.

 

I have learned not to revenge rate because it becomes a vicious circle and the chances of it being resolved are reduced.

 

It is all about communication. The buyer should email or phone the seller and try and resolve the issue first.

Growl at him/her and he will growl back. We are all human we make mistakes.

 

I think Bob should draft an email to all buyers and sellers to educate them on the rating system or allow some kind of note to come up when that negative button is pressed to instruct the user giving the rating to think about his response.

I am sure there are a large number of negative ratings that are unnecessary. A great majority of the time a neutral rating would be more appropriate.

 

It is all about communication,communcation,communication.As Mellowred has said. Buyers and sellers who simply ignore communication are a real frustration.I always make a few attempts to contact a buyer if he has not paid before filing an SNC.

 

My 2cents worth. (I dont want a negative rating.I am paranoid about it)

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admin    0
admin

 

My 2cents worth. (I dont want a negative rating.I am paranoid about it)

 

Not a good idea to advertise it, some people will take advantage if they know this.....;)

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Little Miss Muffet    20
Little Miss Muffet
Not a good idea to advertise it, some people will take advantage if they know this.....;)

 

Buyers cant take advantage of me I take advantage of myself where buyers are concerned but I am not perfect.

Only you have the privelege of removing my comment.

 

Bob is a community of users--One does not always have to go a long way to find the good spirited folk but some users ????:rolleyes:

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dstorm    10
dstorm

Hello all

I could have said: play the rating game the same way that the Germans played in the world cup. But now I would love to add, play it the way the Spaniards do – stay cool – stay in control.

Regards

Jacques

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Little Miss Muffet    20
Little Miss Muffet

What? Happy go lucky..

mother_in_law_apology_greeting_card_card-p1372015263763237218g3x_325.jpg.3dbd468a5d560a69df2c3dddce737801.jpg

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kebs    10
kebs

BTW: There are 5 sellers contributing to 2500 blocked buyers

Isn't this a bit abusive of the blocking system? That's a lot of buyers to such a few sellers!!

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RISadler    10
RISadler

The way I see it, is that the rating system is the big reputation maker and breaker. Unfortunately there are other factors involved when selling on the Internet and using a third-party for delivery.

 

For example, buyer is satisfied with the item, but due to a postal strike delivery took two weeks = buyer gives seller a negative. Why? Because the overall deal did not go smoothly and buyer, for some weird reason, feels the postal strike was orchestrated by the seller/her fault/whatever.

 

Do I want to risk my 100% reputation selling to such buyers? No. If other sellers of note are blocking a specific buyer because he/she is rude, resorts to "ratings" blackmail, only pays after SNC is filed, etc. then I want to know this and want nothing to do with the buyer.

 

I have on another thread suggested expanding the ratings buyers can give to sellers, but sellers also need the same expansion and blocking a buyer seems like a definite solution.

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MacMuffin    0
MacMuffin
Isn't this a bit abusive of the blocking system? That's a lot of buyers to such a few sellers!!

 

That's exactly our point and we will revisit this. In my opinion sellers unfairly block buyers and the traditional rating-, SNC- and blacklisting process should take care of this. From history, sellers asked for this feature as disgruntled buyers (or even competitive sellers) used to bump up sellers sales and then SNC out of it.

 

The rating from a buyer/seller perspective will be reworked over the next few months and will show more granular rating (in communication, fulfillment/shipping, payment, reliability etc).

 

I see it simply in this way - compare the buyer/seller experience to the real world:

- I purchased from a book-shop at a mall before. The next time I pick up a book, get to the till and want to purchase, the shop-owner tells me that I am not welcome. I have the money, but the shop-owner did not like the way I communicated before or the type of questions I asked or because I did not particularly like the quality of the item I bought.

- So now I had a bad buying-experience and based on that I will certainly avoid that shop (if not all the shops in that mall).

- Yes, it is everyone's right to refuse a sale and on BoB we have those mechanisms - via deleting bids, relisting, SNC- or blacklisting processes.

 

I just don't believe it is justified for sellers to block buyers with 100% positive ratings and as such we will introduce measures to rectify it, because those very same sellers spoil the opportunities for every other seller on BoB. Trends do show, that 1st-time-buyers (who are not familiar with BoB and the workings of it and get presented with arrogance/rudeness/impatience by sellers) do not return to BoB and other sellers miss out.

 

We will release communication regarding this formally during the course of next week and what actions will be taken.

 

In closing - yes, the cyberworld allows people to behave differently in real life, but looking at some of the conduct here, I doubt that one would treat people in this way face to face.

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voldermort    10
voldermort

I just don't believe it is justified for sellers to block buyers with 100% positive ratings and as such we will introduce measures to rectify it, because those very same sellers spoil the opportunities for every other seller on BoB. Trends do show, that 1st-time-buyers (who are not familiar with BoB and the workings of it and get presented with arrogance/rudeness/impatience by sellers) do not return to BoB and other sellers miss out.

 

Sorry but I disagree with this. A quick look through the buyers I am blocking shows that most are either blacklisted or nearly there, however there are about 5 or so I am blocking who have good ratings...reasons why:

Buying quite a few items and then when payment due no longer wanting these items

Buying items and having to file snc's for payment

Buying an item last year and then deciding not even a few weeks ago that they would like to return the item (& because I sit with the threat of a positive rating changing to a negative rating I have no choice but to refund said buyer)

 

Would you go into any shop, ask them to keep items for you for two weeks & once the cashier has rung up the items say "oh I don't think I'll bother taking them, I saw them cheaper next door" or would you hum & haw regards payment & eventually only pay once the manager has stipulated that you must or would you buy an item today from any shop worldwide & imagine you have the right to return it next year?

 

Because most sellers realise that if they give a negative rating to a buyer it will be reciprocated perhaps instead of giving negative or any ratings they are simply blocking problem buyers?

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RISadler    10
RISadler
I just don't believe it is justified for sellers to block buyers with 100% positive ratings ...

 

Why not?

 

I had an "experience" with a buyer with 100% rating... he bought an item, but did not want to pay for insurance. SpeedServices lost the parcel and this buyer insisted that I refund him the full purchase price plus postage. He even reported me to hello@bidorbuy.co.za when I refused. (And, boy, was "hello" rude/derogatory towards me!)

 

Due to "ratings" blackmail, there are a lot of rude/bad buyers out there with 100% ratings. Using that as a benchmark is not very accurate or wise.

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MacMuffin    0
MacMuffin

One thought we had is to allow sellers to only block buyers who had SNCs filed with the buyer at fault. A seller should generally not be allowed to block a first-time buyer outright without even going through the completion of an order.

 

I read through the above comments, and clinically looking at buyers with ratings of 99.7/99.8 and in excess of 700-1500 positive ratings (without any negative ratings in a few months) makes me not understand how those people can land up in a sellers blocked list. Sadly those stats seem to be the rule and not the exception.

 

I am also puzzled that some sellers list buyers with high ratings where the buyer has not even transacted with a seller (i.e. not placed a single bid, not asked a single question etc).

 

It is rather surprising that running a business like this, one still wants to be selective about their customers (I fully agree that we don't want to entertain rubbish buyers and fraudsters) and putting buyers rudeness aside makes me wonder how much opportunity/upsell is lost.

 

Another aspect we will look at is to unblock buyers if they have "redeemed" themselves which would be based on buyer transactional behaviour (a mix of transactions completed, non SNC filings against buyers, and feedback received).

 

So what are your suggestions to give the seller the opportunity to block buyers, but still apply some common sense/reason - just because a buyer is rude or asks a lot of questions should not result in the loss of a sales opportunity.

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RISadler    10
RISadler
... putting buyers rudeness aside ...

 

IMO this is the main reason for blocking a buyer.

 

... Another aspect we will look at is to unblock buyers if they have "redeemed" themselves which would be based on buyer transactional behaviour (a mix of transactions completed, non SNC filings against buyers, and feedback received).

 

So what are your suggestions to give the seller the opportunity to block buyers, but still apply some common sense/reason - just because a buyer is rude or asks a lot of questions should not result in the loss of a sales opportunity.

 

"Right of Admission Reserved" - only your suggestion above means that bidorbuy management will have the say and not the seller. (Sorry, but this smells of totalitarianism to me.)

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Little Miss Muffet    20
Little Miss Muffet

Redeemed Herself

 

One buyer I am Blocking bought an item on the 5th April user"debidrury".

She lives in the same suburb as i do so I phoned to ask if she would like to pick up the item.

She said she would get back to be and failed to do so.

I sent her a few emails and had no response and she did not answer her phone. My quess is she saw number come up and ignored it--but only a quess.

 

SNC was completed --no response from buyer. Then some time later I get an email she still wants the item.

She had 1 positive rating and 1 negative from me.

I responded--why I dont know? Maybe it is just good manners.

Because she was new on Bob I said I would change the rating to neutral so that it did not affect her rating and put other sellers off.

I lost on that item--entered it on R1 crazy. The frustration is not worth it so I blocked her.

Item bought 5thApril neutral rating 11th May. That is a long time span between sale and contact

She now has 15 positive ratings compared to 1 positive when the offense occurred.

My thought is this. If I unblock her and she buys from me again she may just ,for revenge, press that negative or neutral button.

I mean the only reason she probably came back to me was because she wanted to redeem herself in the hope of me changing the negative rating.

I think I have been generous enough.

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MacMuffin    0
MacMuffin
"Right of Admission Reserved" - only your suggestion above means that bidorbuy management will have the say and not the seller. (Sorry, but this smells of totalitarianism to me.)

 

If you go through the posts above you will find 80% of the cases are related to emotions or poor communication - this is very representative in the number of users blocked. In order to provide a fair mechanism to both the buyer and the seller we need to arrive at a point where emotion can be discarded. After all this is a marketplace and not a social network where you need to befriend your buyers.

 

All I am saying is that the current mechanism does not work and as mellowred said - it is quite scary that within 3 months 5 sellers blocked 2500 users.

 

I am still waiting for some suggestions - we have always been open to improve on things. We acknowledge that the way it currently functions does not work. One can then very easily confuse totalitarianism with the lack of input / recommendations ;)

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MacMuffin    0
MacMuffin
My thought is this. If I unblock her and she buys from me again she may just ,for revenge, press that negative or neutral button.

 

As RISadler put it so well: "...the rating system is the big reputation maker and breaker". This is one of our bugbears - rating abuse is almost becoming an epidemic. Hopefully before September/October we will have put a comprehensive revised rating system in place which should allow sellers and buyers rate each other on a number of aspects (such as communication, payment, fulfillment, reliability, quality of goods etc) - this will be a lot more telling of a user's behavior than the current stars.

 

If a buyer always pays late, guess what, he will get a bad rating on payment. If a sellers items never arrive or are always shipped late or if quality lacks, this will be reflective on those overall ratings and comments from both parties will be able to support those.

 

With aspects like this there will be no more debate if one should get a positive/negative rating.

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RISadler    10
RISadler

My point is that a rude/obnoxious buyer will most probably be rated "positive" provided (s)he pays and also out of fear of "rating" blackmail. Most sellers do not wish to ever do business with this person again, hence they are now blocked.

 

The fact that the blocked buyers have good ratings is immaterial. They are blocked for a reason and that reason is that the seller never, ever wants to see the buyer again. Yes, it is emotional, but who started/caused it?

 

I am not confusing anything/whatever with totalitarianism. If bidorbuy management says that I must sell/do business with a particular buyer, simply because (s)he has +90% rating and completely ignores the fact that the buyer is a late payer/rude/abusive/blackmailer, then that is totalitarianism because it completely removes my right to choose with whom I do business.

 

As to input/suggestion/recommendations, I've given my share over the years.

 

Mac, it's good to hear that the rating system will change. If done correctly...

 

(Guess I'm having a negative week, most probably month... :mad:)

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MacMuffin    0
MacMuffin
If bidorbuy management says that I must sell/do business with a particular buyer, simply because (s)he has +90% rating and completely ignores the fact that the buyer is a late payer/rude/abusive/blackmailer, then that is totalitarianism because it completely removes my right to choose with whom I do business.

 

Not quite the case - what we are saying is that, just because a buyer caused you headaches 30-60 days ago and we allowed you to block him and we have after 30-60 days found that this buyers behavior has changed, why not give him/her another chance.

 

Perhaps I believe too much in the good of people and give one more than one chance if I reasonable feel that things could be different the next time - and this is pretty much what we are trying to achieve...

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Little Miss Muffet    20
Little Miss Muffet

I think if Bidorbuy think a user should be unblocked then the seller must be given the reasons why they feel this way and let the user decide.

 

A buyer who has let a seller down is less likely to buy from the seller again anyway.The buyer would likely feel a bit embarassed todeal with the seller again.

 

I have a guy on here who hates me for ending an auction in someones favour.

I dont like conflict and would prefer to be on good terms with all buyers.He has even hassled me and no one needs that.

 

I have not blocked him because he wont buy from me anyway.

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RISadler    10
RISadler
Not quite the case - what we are saying is that, just because a buyer caused you headaches 30-60 days ago and we allowed you to block him and we have after 30-60 days found that this buyers behavior has changed, why not give him/her another chance.

 

How will you know that (s)he has changed?

 

Perhaps I believe too much in the good of people and give one more than one chance if I reasonable feel that things could be different the next time - and this is pretty much what we are trying to achieve...

 

I used to be like that...

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qball    10
qball

I would like to add something to this thread. The reason we are also relooking at this, is that this facility is being abused by some sellers, mainly for the wrong reasons, as a result bidorbuy (and you the sellers) are losing out on potentially great buyers, especially new buyers. Without new buyers the site will remain stagnant. What we are trying to avoid is a scenario where the site loses potential buyers due to a seller's emotional and damaging reaction to the bidder/buyer. They simply don't come back, so the pool of buyers potentially becomes smaller, affecting all sellers on the site - less buyers, less sales.

 

Admittedly there are valid and legitimate reasons to block some buyers/bidders, but on the whole this seems to be abused by many sellers. Many of you have valid and legitimate complaints or reasons for taking the action you do, but to block a bidder because he asked a question which irritated you is not a good reason. That boils down to customer service skills, even if the question is stupid, answer it, politely with the correct response, and not, "read my damn listing". This sends out a very negative perception of you as a seller, and a buyer will think twice about buying from you, if this is how one reacts to a question, can you imagine if something went wrong with the sale? Many of these issues can be resolved through effective communication, before and after the sale has taken place.

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