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saiedm

SAAND Dealers Against us Internet Traders!

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saiedm

Hi Guys

I recently called the SA Mint to register as a dealer and was told that at the last SAAND meeting it was decided not to let anyone register as a dealer at the SA Mint. The reason for this is they want to cut out all Internet Traders like myself. This is crazy as I feel that internet trading controls this market. Besides there are also SAAND dealers trading on bid or buyso where is the problem. We should all be entitled to register as dealers.

 

Regards

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Guest Guest

Hi Saiedm

 

That sounds like a classic breach of fair trading laws to me. A closed club like you suggest would not be allowed here in Australia.

 

The SA Mint should move with the times - most coin trades today are now done through auction sites like BoB.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

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coinoisseur

Hi Saiedm

 

If you are a registered coin dealer, and by this I mean, have a VAT number a registered business etc... then I do not see why the SA Mint should refuse you a dealership status. You should re-approach them to correct it.

 

 

Cheers

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PBGold

Not to sure about that one, but I do know that the Mint will no longer register part time sellers or sellers that work from their car boots.

 

They will only register a business as a dealer if that business is a full time dealer with business premises.

 

The problem occurred a few years ago when the Mandela coin craze was just picking up speed. Suddenly everyone was a dealer and needed a hundred of this and a hundred of that. Then when the Mandela's were gone, so were all these so-called 'dealers'. They bought no Naturas, Proteas etc. from the Mint, but as soon as a new Mandela came out they appeared again.

 

So the Mint basically just wants to make sure that when they register a new dealer that that business is in fact a real dealer and not some fly-by-night setup that just wants to cash in on Mandelas.

 

Therefore, it has become very difficult to become a dealer. Since January 2008 only 4 new dealers have been registered, of which 3 were affirmative action registrations.

 

So, if you want the Mint to register you as a dealer, you had better make sure that, well...you are a dealer.

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4kids

It is also my understanding that besides being a registered bussiness with VAT nr and so forth you also need to have a previous track record as a buyer of SA Mint products. They will only consider you as a dealer once you've spent a certain average turnover with them in a year as a buyer before they would consider you as a dealer. This make perfect sense as anyone can go register a bussiness and apply for a VAT number just to qualify as a dealer and buy at a small discount.

 

Come on guys, in all industries there are various levels of pricing and any supplier or manufacturer to trade and retail markets has the right protect their market and as such entitled to their different pricing structures. You are not denied the product, you will simply be denied a discount which you may or may not be entitled to.

 

This is no closed club trading network but simply a manufacturer who has the right to chose his outlets and re-sllers based on a discounted supply.

 

and NO I am not a Registered Dealer but has been doing bussiness in other sectors and as a result understand the reasoning of the Mint.

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saiedm

I have decided to sell off all my modern coins which has no history and I will rather invest that money in proper rare coins. The only coins that have really increased in value from the mint has been the Mandela coins.

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Pierre_Henri

That is impossible?

 

...and was told that at the last SAAND meeting it was decided not to let anyone register as a dealer at the SA Mint

 

So SAAND is calling the shots and not the SA Mint or do I read this wrong?

 

If SAAND at their last meeting indeed decided that no new dealers can register at the SA Mint then surely this calls for the biggest legal action in numismatic history in SA.

 

Hopefully I misunderstood your post?

 

Kind regards

 

Pierre

 

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Vertigo

HI ALL.

 

I SHARE SAIEDS SENTIMENT , I WAS TOLD THAT , I NEED TO HAVE A COIN SHOP/ OUTLET , MY COMPANY DOCUMENTS WERE ALL IN ORDER AND I WAS NOT GIVEN A REASON AS TO WHY I CANNOT BECOME A DEALER,

I WAS TOLD BY THE MINT THAT I AM WASTING MY TIME BY TRYING TO APPLY

I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE REGARDED AS "SUITCASE DEALERS" BY THE MINT, AND I THINK ITS AN UNFAIR PRACTICE.

 

WHAT A FEELING TO BE REJECTED WITHOUT A VALID REASON IN A COUNTRY THAT WAS RECENTLY BORN INTO FREEDOM.

AND I THOUGHT THAT THE FREEDOM CHARTER MEANT SOMETHING.

 

SEE THIS ARTICLE APPOSING NON SAAND DEALERS

  • Choose a reputable dealer. There has been a mini boom in the number of gold coin traders since the start of the financial crisis. Only deal with members of the South African Association of Numismatic Dealers (Sndaa), says Theba. These dealers have to follow a code and the ethics of the association, and should you have a dispute the SAAND will also mediate between parties. The Rand Refinery, which produced Krugerrands, will only sell its coins to Saand members.
     
     
     
    SEE ENTIRE ARTICLE
     
    How to buy gold coins: Fin24: Personal Finance: Investing
     
     
    WARM REGARDS
     
    PROUD SOUTH AFRICAN AND PROUDER "SUITCASE DEALER"

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PBGold

 

So SAAND is calling the shots and not the SA Mint or do I read this wrong?

 

If SAAND at their last meeting indeed decided that no new dealers can register at the SA Mint then surely this calls for the biggest legal action in numismatic history in SA.

 

Hopefully I misunderstood your post?

 

Kind regards

 

Pierre

 

 

I doubt SAAND is calling the shots. My experience with the Mint is that they do whatever they want to regardless of what anyone thinks, says or does.

 

However, I don't have a problem with the Mint trying to ensure that all of their registered dealers are in fact bona fide dealers, and not flash in the pans that want to make a quick buck off Mandelas.

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Pierre_Henri

Seems like an Internet society is the only way ...

 

Maybe the only way out for us is an Internet Coin Dealers Society for South Africa? If you scroll down you will see a long descussion regarding a Coin Collectors Society for SA - maybe what we need is a combination of the two?

 

A wake up call for the South African Mint is long overdue.

 

They can support the handfull of SAAND dealers or the overwhelming majority that carries this hobby each and everyday - in times of hardship (as is currently the case) or the good times that we all hope is just around the corner.

 

The SA Mint's selective support to a "chosen few" smacks of the bad old days when only the "Broederbond" got helped.

 

I will be taking a break from this forum for a while, but hope that whatever responses we get will be positive and supportive.

 

Kind regards

 

Pierre

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Dulal
Maybe the only way out for us is an Internet Coin Dealers Society for South Africa? If you scroll down you will see a long descussion regarding a Coin Collectors Society for SA - maybe what we need is a combination of the two?

 

 

Kind regards

 

Pierre

 

I agree with Pierre.

I beleive almighty will not keep all the door closed. Somewhere there is a door open. We just need keep on trying to see that open door.

 

Dulal

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PBGold

 

A wake up call for the South African Mint is long overdue.

 

They can support the handfull of SAAND dealers or the overwhelming majority that carries this hobby each and everyday - in times of hardship (as is currently the case) or the good times that we all hope is just around the corner.

 

 

Sorry Pierre, but you have it the wrong way around. The Mint does not support the dealers. The dealers support the Mint.

 

The Mint does not care about hobbies, collecting, investment etc. etc. They are a factory that produces a product. A product they sell in the manner that generates them the most income.

 

Dealers that have been supporting them for years will be allocated more stock. A suitcase dealer that only buys from them when there are Mandelas will get very little stock allocated to them. There is nothing wrong with this. Of course, any business will look after their loyal clients.

 

When the Mint looks at allocating stock to dealers they look at that dealers' track record. Not just at how many Mandelas they bought or wanted to buy. They look at Proteas, Naturas, Silvers etc etc.

 

In the majority of cases a person wants to be a dealer just to buy Mandelas. Unfortunately this element is spoiling it for genuine dealers. This element will go to the Mint and want to register as a dealer claiming that they will spend millions, but they never do. They never buy Naturas, Proteas, Silvers etc. etc. They just want Mandelas.

 

So the Mint has become very strict. I, for one, am glad they are, because the element I was talking about was stuffing up the market.

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qball
This is a bit off topic but when gold virtually tripled in price everyone seemed to get on the band wagon to scrap gold.

A new law was passed that in order to scrap gold or silver at a precious metal dealer one had to have a secondhand dealers licence

This is quite a process if one does not have a shop.

 

I was sitting with R20,000 worth of scrap when I fortunately found a

manufacturing jeweller who was willing to pay me the same price as the scrap metal dealers. So he scores as well since he would pay more from the metal dealer

 

Please stick to the topic at hand

 

Thank you

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Vertigo

Experts Give Us Input !!!!!!!!

 

HI ALL.

 

I SHARE SAIEDS SENTIMENT , I WAS TOLD THAT , I NEED TO HAVE A COIN SHOP/ OUTLET , MY COMPANY DOCUMENTS WERE ALL IN ORDER AND I WAS NOT GIVEN A REASON AS TO WHY I CANNOT BECOME A DEALER,

I WAS TOLD BY THE MINT THAT I AM WASTING MY TIME BY TRYING TO APPLY

I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE REGARDED AS "SUITCASE DEALERS" BY THE MINT, AND I THINK ITS AN UNFAIR PRACTICE.

 

WHAT A FEELING TO BE REJECTED WITHOUT A VALID REASON IN A COUNTRY THAT WAS RECENTLY BORN INTO FREEDOM.

AND I THOUGHT THAT THE FREEDOM CHARTER MEANT SOMETHING.

 

SEE THIS ARTICLE APPOSING NON SAAND DEALERS

  • Choose a reputable dealer. There has been a mini boom in the number of gold coin traders since the start of the financial crisis. Only deal with members of the South African Association of Numismatic Dealers (Sndaa), says Theba. These dealers have to follow a code and the ethics of the association, and should you have a dispute the SAAND will also mediate between parties. The Rand Refinery, which produced Krugerrands, will only sell its coins to Saand members.
     
     
     
    SEE ENTIRE ARTICLE
     
    How to buy gold coins: Fin24: Personal Finance: Investing
     
     
    WARM REGARDS

 

HI ALL,

KINDLY ADVISE ON THIS ARTICLE .

WHAT IS WRONG WITH INTERNET TRADERS.

THE MOST EXPENSIVE UNION COIN GOT SOLD RECENTLY ON BOB ,

I HAVE 100% POSITIVE FEEDBACK , AND MY PRICES ARE HALF OF THE SHOPS.

 

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:

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qball

SAAND response part 1

 

Hi All

 

SAAND have asked me to post a response regarding this matter -

 

Gentlemen,

It has been decided that we should reply to the comments that have been posted by various parties regarding the situation with “registered dealers” and the so called “part time or suitcase dealers”.

Any manufacturer or distributer of any product has its dealer network to which it sells a product for distribution to service a larger market. On occasion, these “dealers” receive preferential treatment and rates because they have inverted money into infrastructure and stock.

Example: The man in the street cannot buy a car from the manufacturer, “Ford Motor Company” and then resell it to a prospective client. He is not a dealer and does not qualify. That is why there are dealers. SAAND is an association of “professional numismatic dealers” who make their living through numismatics. There is a constitution that controls the ethics and code of conduct. SAAND members are NOT part time dealers. Most SAAND members actually started out as collectors just like most of the people that have commented on the forum. These “collectors” then traded with other collectors and other dealers. Once their “hobby” became viable enough to support them, they then became professional dealers.

To clarify a few misconceptions:

The industry at large, which includes the SA Mint, Rand Refinery, and the Precious Metals Regulator, the Jewellery Council of South Africa, The Antique Dealers Association the South African Police Services and SARS, amongst others, must confirm the credibility and “bona fides” of those participating in the market. There is something called “VAT”, the Second-hand Goods Act and the “FICA Act”. Whether we like it not, VAT, SARS and the FICA Act are here to stay. While compiling this reply we actually received further correspondence from the Financial Intelligence Centre. While you are a “collector dealer or suitcase dealer” you might be able to get away with and avoid some or most of these issues, but if you intend dealing professionally, on a full time basis, these are very real issues. The main reason that “collectors” want to be classified as “dealers” is because they want to qualify for the “specials” that registered dealers enjoy. They will try to get as many Nelson Mandela and FIFA coins from the SA Mint as possible. These coins are not for their own collections, but for re-sale, at a profit, to other collectors. It is for this reason that if you want to be accredited as a “dealer”, you must be prepared to complete the necessary application form and comply. This includes a VAT Registration number, a company registration number, a tax clearance, a police clearance and history of your track record as a “collector” and also as a “dealer”.

 

Someone commented on the forum that SAAND is a “closed club”. This is not true. SAAND gladly invites new members, as the more members we have, the stronger the Association is. If you can comply with the requirements, we will be pleased to have you as a member.

 

Another contributor to the forum added, and we quote:

 

“Not too sure about that one, but I do know that the Mint will no longer register part time sellers or sellers that work from their car boots."

 

They will only register a business as a dealer if that business is a full time dealer with business premises.

 

The problem occurred a few years ago when the Mandela coin craze was just picking up speed. Suddenly everyone was a dealer and needed a hundred of this and a hundred of that. Then when the Mandela's were gone, so were all these so-called 'dealers'. They bought no Naturas, Proteas etc. from the Mint, but as soon as a new Mandela came out they appeared again.

 

So the Mint basically just wants to make sure that when they register a new dealer that that business is in fact a real dealer and not some fly-by-night setup that just wants to cash in on “Mandelas.”

 

Although SAAND cannot comment on the behalf of The SA Mint, we do not believe that they will not deny the registration of a “dealer” provided that that person is a dealer.

 

Part 2 to follow...

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qball

SAAND response part 2

 

We quote another contribution to the forum:

 

“Maybe the only way out for us is an Internet Coin Dealers Society for South Africa? If you scroll down you will see a long discussion regarding a Coin Collectors Society for SA - maybe what we need is a combination of the two?

 

A wake up call for the South African Mint is long overdue.

 

They can support the handful of SAAND dealers or the overwhelming majority that carries this hobby each and everyday - in times of hardship (as is currently the case) or the good times that we all hope is just around the corner.

 

Please note that the comment calls for a “Coin Collectors Society”

Please be aware that there are already a number of very prominent Numismatic and related Societies in South Africa.

 

The South African Numismatic Society Cape Town.

The Natal Numismatic Society Durban

The National Numismatic Society Johannesburg

Pietermaritzburg Numismatic Society Pietermaritzburg

The SA Military Medal Society Johannesburg

The Border Numismatic Society Eastern Cape

The Preservation for Militaria Society Durban

These are “collector’s societies”, and most of them have been in existence for many years. Amongst the members there is a wealth of knowledge that is continually shared with members. Very active trading takes place between members of all these societies and also with dealers. Many large deals have been done between members. May we suggest that those who feel that they want to form a “Coin Collectors Society” first investigate joining one or more of the existing societies? Do we now have to “re-invent the wheel” and form another society?

The members of these societies enjoy this “hobby”, as mentioned in the above and although they continually trade, they are not “fully fledged” dealers.

Quote: “or the overwhelming majority that carries this hobby each and everyday”

Although many dealers have their own personal collections, please be aware that numismatics is not only a “hobby” for SAAND members…..it is their business, their lively hood and their “bread and butter.

The vast majority of the “traders” doing business on the internet or Bid or Buy have other jobs which is their primary source of income. The selling of coins on bob is, in very many cases, secondary and is definitely not their primary source of income.

 

Quote:

...and was told that at the last SAAND meeting it was decided not to let anyone register as a dealer at the SA Mint

 

So SAAND is calling the shots and not the SA Mint or do I read this wrong?

 

 

This is incorrect.

Neither SAAND nor anyone else can prescribe to the SA Mint as to who they deal with. Let it be clear that dealers primarily register with SAAND and not with the SA Mint. The Mint can offer their clients whatever deals, discount or privileges they like. It is their prerogative to decide who they feel “qualifies” for these “privileges”.

In closing, we would like to invite anyone who feels that they are being disadvantaged to go to the SAAND website. www.saand.co.za . Please take a look at the Constitution, the application form and also the newly promulgated Second hand goods act and the new FICA Act.

The details of the Societies are also available to anyone who would like to learn a bit more.

Anyone who feels that they would like to contact me personally, please feel to do so.

Glenn Schoeman

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Guest Guest

In the interests of numismatics

 

Hi Cuan

 

Thank you for posting the SAAND response.

 

It strikes me that the response from Glenn has not taken into account the modern times we live in. When I was a young man living in Johannesburg in the 1980s I used to go and see P&G Coins and buy coins there. There was no other option in those dark days. I could only buy what Peter had for sale in his store because there was no Internet.

 

Today I use Bid or Buy, Heritage and eBay to find the pieces I desire most. Can't even remember when I last looked at the website of a SAAND member because I know that I can get a better deal and more variety by dealing direct with "suit case" sellers through an online auction house.

 

The SAAND letter refers to the various numismatic societies in the country as if they were the answer. The tragedy is that there are so FEW clubs running in South Africa today - probably less than in the 1970s! If the SAAND members were doing their job in the interests of numismatics they would have been the catalyst behind clubs being established in every major population centre - including places like Bloemfontein, Krugersdorp, Soweto, Alexandria, Pretoria and Port Elizabeth.

 

As a result of SAAND "dropping the ball" collectors, I would suggest, now spend more time surfing the web in pursuit of their hobby than going to monthly club meetings (if you are lucky enough to have club in your area).

 

It is easy to throw up hurdles to keep membership exclusive - like the SAAND letter continually refers to - but I think that this approach is going to be self defeating for the organisation. They should be holding meetings in major centres to help what they call somewhat derogatorily "car boot" or "suit case" sellers who use the Internet as their primary source of selling. Come on guys get out from behind those counters and meet the new generation of online coin dealers - there is much you will learn from them.

 

There is obviously a growing interest in numismatics in South Africa and the exciting development is the increasing number of indigenous collectors whose distant origins are from this great continent. Yes, Mandela was without doubt the catalyst - not SAAND. They, amongst the many reputable buyers and sellers I see here on BoB, offer SAAND a wonderful opportunity to PROVE to the wider community that they are not elitist and embrace the modern 21st Century South Africa.

 

My appeal to the SAAND members is that they take up this opportunity to break new ground, get new members in BY HELPING THEM IN A PROACTIVE WAY rather than throwing up barriers at arm's length. Refering potential SAAND members to the web page does not extend a hand in friendship, if anything it creates distance and exacerbates the elitist view that many have suggested here.

 

I think it is quite extraordinary that a government department like the S A Mint can pick and choose who it sells its coins to. It is a government department which is, by its very nature, supposed to be a servant of the people not an arbitrator on who can do business with them. It is NOT a private business with a dealer network - which SAAND use as examples in their letter.

 

In closing I think an open online Numismatic Collectors Society where collectors can share views, knowledge and ideas is an excellent idea. It is a pity that SAAND didn't think of it first!

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

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PBGold

Hi Scott,

 

Unfortunately, the South African Mint does as it pleases.

 

I cannot see this changing in the near future.

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Cold Sea

I must agree with Scott about moving with the times. I live in Cape Town where the local Numismatic society is nearly invisible on the web. I have tried to contact them via a postal address, but no reply.

 

May we suggest that those who feel that they want to form a “Coin Collectors Society” first investigate joining one or more of the existing societies? Do we now have to “re-invent the wheel” and form another society?

 

Maybe some coin societies need dust the cobwebs a little, and look at expanding their membership beyond what seems to be nepotic fraternities.

 

Derick Rabe

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ECONOZONE

A society on the web would be a great idea.

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4kids

I agree with Derick "craigcar" that the existing coin societies does need some serious dusting off.

 

I have been a collector all my life, have never been a member of any of these societies and got invited to a meeting of The National Numismatic Society Johannesburg at Gold Reef City more than a year ago which I attended.

 

One of the subjects under discussion by Mr. Peter Wilson was that the Society should do "MORE" moer to attract new members and younger people for that matter. I think I was at the time probably the youngest person in attendance.

 

Here I met for the first time some great names in the numismatic collectors field and promptly completed a membership application form and the next day handed it to a senior member together with my fees.

 

Months later and still not heard from anyone, not even a newsletter of sorts.

 

I also managed to speak to another member in the middle of last year and was told that my application was received and I am a member - whoopee!

 

I called this morning and spoke to the first member my application was handed to and was told that the next meeting is on the 28th of this month at ABSA Museum. A letter, telegram, telephone call or even a smoke signal would have been nice, then at least I could have planned my 180 kilometre round trip to attend this meeting well in advance..

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Guest Guest

Is Peter Wilson still the Chair of the National Numismatic Society and Brian Hern the Secretary?

 

I know they held those positions in 2005 and would be interested to see if there had been any changes in these key committee roles since then.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

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4kids

I think Ken Bezuidenhout is secretary and Peter Wilson is chair. Not Sure!

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Pierre_Henri

Oops - language please gentleman!

 

...the Society should do moer to attract new members and younger people for that matter.

 

Hell Jan, I sure hope they do not moer them to hard ...!

 

Pierre

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lilythepink
One of the subjects under discussion by Mr. Peter Wilson was that the Society should do moer to attract new members and younger people for that matter.

 

Sorry, I know it's just a typo, but my sense of humour has overtaken me again. :P:p

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