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Pierre_Henri

New South African Coin Grading Service

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Pierre_Henri

In the past few days I had numerous calls and e-mails about SAAND (South African Association of Numismatic Dealers) starting up a new Coin Grading Service in South Africa before the end of this year.

 

As this (BoB's coin forum) is probably the most well read source for numismatic info in South Africa, I would realy like to hear some comments from the numerous SAAND members that must surely read this forum everyday.

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WRANGLER_4X4

At least I now know from a friend which one Not to use. And will thus use this one instead, Thank's for the info.

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EWAAN Galleries

Hi Pierre

 

Thanks for the info. This is great news for the market as long as the grading company has no interest in selling coins at all. They must do grading only right..

 

It will take at least 5 years before recognized worldwide. Maybe when the big auction houses put them up for sale.

 

Soon all countries will probably start grading their own coins then - makes sense but NGC and PCGS are known all over. Will take a good few years to get any grading company to that level.

 

 

I wonder who is in charge of the grading company in SA. If they are consistent in grading and have no dealing in coins, we will definitely send some coins to them for grading.

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4kids

I certainly will support such a service providing that they also follow the already international scale of grading i.e. the Sheldon Scale and that any person or persons involved in such a company is not a dealer/s nor involved in any form of dealership with total transparency.

 

I also do not think that the majority of collectors are reading these postings as I meet at least one collector a week that is not even interested in buying or selling surplus items on BoB.

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ECONOZONE

Who is going to be the Guinea Pig?

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alloway65

Me!!!;)

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Pierre_Henri

Who is going to do the grading?

 

I hope that SAAND will soon respond if this is just a rumour or not.

 

In the mean time one can speculate about many things like, for example, who is going to do the actual grading?

 

I would like to see someone like Alex (Aljada) getting involved regarding the Union coinage. Regarding the ZAR coinage I would not know who the experts are.

 

Pierre

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BumbleBee

There is going to have to be a whole team to grade the Mandela coins :D

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Dulal
In the past few days I had numerous calls and e-mails about SAAND (South African Association of Numismatic Dealers) starting up a new Coin Grading Service in South Africa before the end of this year.

 

 

 

DEALERS ASSOCIATION will be starting a coin coin grading service-very complicated circus to me. Grading own coin and selling those to us - who will be umpire/ referee? What happened to SACGS? Tried to go their website but failed.

 

Dulal

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coinoisseur
In the past few days I had numerous calls and e-mails about SAAND (South African Association of Numismatic Dealers) starting up a new Coin Grading Service in South Africa before the end of this year.

From what I know, the only thing that SAAND looked at was the possibility of grading coins here in South Africa. This was some time back and has since been off the radar. The emails and calls about SAAND setting up a grading service before the end of the year is totally "SPECULATION" and without substance.

 

Like I have also stated in previous posts regarding a grading service being established here in South Africa, the wheel has already been invented by SACGS and there is nothing stopping SAAND from talking with SACGS to decided the best way forward.

 

DEALERS ASSOCIATION will be starting a coin coin grading service-very complicated circus to me. Grading own coin and selling those to us - who will be umpire/ referee? What happened to SACGS? Tried to go their website but failed.

One cannot make statements without the correct information. SAAND will not be grading coins and nor will any dealers.

 

For now this is merely speculation and nothing more...

 

 

 

Cheers

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Pierre_Henri

Thank you Anthony

 

SAAND is a well respected fraternity so please do not misunderstand this forum's members inquisitiveness about this issue.

 

Maybe because we are such a small coin-community in SA (as appose to the huge support of numismatics in a country like the USA) we are just overly "nosey"

 

Whatever, regarding your replies ...

 

...there is nothing stopping SAAND from talking with SACGS to decided the best way forward.

 

and ...

 

SAAND will not be grading coins and nor will any dealers.

 

My question is the following ...

 

 

Why would SAAND even consider talking to SACGS if they (SAAND) are not interested in grading coins?

 

Regards

 

Pierre

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coinoisseur
Why would SAAND even consider talking to SACGS if they (SAAND) are not interested in grading coins?

Hi Pierre

 

SAAND talking to SACGS would have nothing to do with the grading of coins. SAAND was approached about 3 years ago by many prominent collectors to "look" at the feasibility of a grading service within this country. This was brought about due to the high costs, high risks, theft, over grading and under grading of coins, inconsistancy in grading of many coins, and also a lack of knowing all South African coins by third party grading companies. Like I said previously, the wheel has already been invented by SACGS in this country, and by SAAND talking to SACGS would mean that SACGS would have the backing of the registered dealers assosiation in this country. This will then ensure that whatever grading service is established in this country would be recognised internationally. SACGS would also have to comply with certain requirements that SAAND may have regarding slabbing, grading, ethics, consistancy etc if it wants to be a market player.

 

SAAND is an organisation made up of registered coin dealers, and they have no interest in the grading or slabbing of coins. Their primary role is the buying and selling of coins. If they wanted coins slabbed, they would have to send them in like any other collector would, following the normal process any coin sent in for grading would.

 

Like in America, the ANA (American Numismatic Association), is like a watch dog. so to would SAAND be the watch dog in South Africa.

 

If for some reason lets say SACGS or any other grading company thats formed within South Africa does not want to conform to SAAND's requirements, then unfortunately they would not have the backing of the organisation and would have to swim on their own.

 

So in the end, the collectors wanted a grading service in this country. I think we have one. It might have its teething problems etc.... but with time and experience I would only presume it can only get better. I for one have not used their service as yet, so I cannot comment on their grading or the quality of the slabs but I do intend sending a few coins for grading to see what their service offering is all about.

 

 

Cheers

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Dulal

From what I know, the only thing that SAAND looked at was the possibility of grading coins here in South Africa. This was some time back and has since been off the radar. The emails and calls about SAAND setting up a grading service before the end of the year is totally "SPECULATION" and without substance.

 

Like I have also stated in previous posts regarding a grading service being established here in South Africa, the wheel has already been invented by SACGS and there is nothing stopping SAAND from talking with SACGS to decided the best way forward.

 

 

One cannot make statements without the correct information. SAAND will not be grading coins and nor will any dealers.

 

For now this is merely speculation and nothing more...

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Thank you Anthony.IN my previous post , I raised the issue of referee. I think SAAND is perfectly suitable as a watchdog. With their strong organizational background,dedicated and knowledgeable people they can market SACGS and likes at international level and help them to serve at a intternational standard. We also wish more SAAND member to take part in the forum. At this stage MR Anthony is probably only most active person.We thank you for contribution on the forum.

I also beleive every dealer is also a collector, at least those who I know. What about their participation in SANCS (recently discussed in this forum)? I think they will add values.

 

Dulal

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Dulal

 

 

 

One cannot make statements without the correct information. SAAND will not be grading coins and nor will any dealers.

 

For now this is merely speculation and nothing more...

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Hi ANTHONY

my apology.It was my poor english. I should have quote original statement which initiated this discussion and comment. I hope my apology will be accepted.

OR I CAN EDIT MY PREVIOUS POST IF YOU WANT.

Dulal

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coinoisseur
I also beleive every dealer is also a collector, at least those who I know. What about their participation in SANCS (recently discussed in this forum)? I think they will add values.

Dulal

 

I cannot comment for other dealers but if an organisation adds value and benefit, then I do see any reason why they should not join. SAAND is a body/organisation for registered Numismatic Dealers and is NOT a coin collectors club or society. There is a big difference between a coin collectors club and a Numismatic Dealers Association. I can tell you now there are quite a few coin clubs in South Africa.

  • The Natal Numismatic Society
  • The Pietermartizburg Numismatic Society
  • The Border Numismatic Society
  • The South African Numismatic Society (Cape Town)
  • The National Numismatic Society (JHB)
  • The Bloemfontein Numismatic Society

Over and above these societies, there are Militaria/Medal societies that are also in operation in South Africa and they meet regularly as well.

 

All of these societies belong to an organisation called "The Association Of South African Numismatic Societies" (ASANS). This organisation represents organised numismatics within South Africa. The organisation handles cases/problems at a National Level on behalf of the regional Numismatic Societies for its members, like "Capital Gains Tax", SARS issues, Second Hand Goods Act etc.... It is non profit, and each Numismatic Society pays an annual fee to ASANS.

 

ASANS engaged an advocate some time back to fight SARS on the Captial Gains Tax issue regarding coins. ASANS was successful with this. If a Numismatic Society had to do this on their own, it would not have the same impact as an association representing all societies collectively. ASANS also produces a numismatic journal from time to time.

 

SAAND and ASANS are two seperate entities with different constitutions, one representing Numismatic Dealers and the other representing Numismatic Societies.

 

With all that said, these numismatic societies are open to everyone with a small annual membership fee. These Numismatic Societies meet from time to time and send out regular newsletters. I am not sure the frequency they meet. I can comment with regards to Natal, The Natal Numismatic Society meets on the 4th Monday of every month and the PMB Numismatic Society meets on the 1st Thursday of every month.

 

At the Natal Society, we have a talk every month and at the end of the meeting members bring in items that we auction off during tea.

 

 

Cheers

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Vertigo

Overgrade Or Undergrade

 

HI ALL , FROM A LAYMANS POINT OF VIEW I HAVE NOTICED THAT SACGS AS APPOSED TO THE MORE ESTABLISHED US GRADING COMPANIES ARE CURRENTLY OVERGRADING THE MODERN COINS ,

I THINK WE SHOULD LOOK AT THE PROCESS INVOLVED IN GRADING AS APPOSED TO THE MAJOR US PLAYERS (EQUIPMENT , EXPERIENCE , PROCESSES , ETC )

FROM A WORLDWIDE PERSPECTIVE I FEEL THAT THE MAJOR US GRADERS HAVE AN UPPER HAND AS WORLDWIDE BUYERS WOULD NOT BE ENTICED TO PRUCHASE A SACGS SLAB AS IT IS NOT "BRANDED" (eg: NNC)

TO ME I FEEL THAT ANACS NGC AND PCGS SLABS WOULD SERVE ME BETTER FROM AN INVESTMENT POINT OF VIEW.

 

WARM REGARDS

VERTIGO

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coinoisseur
HI ALL , FROM A LAYMANS POINT OF VIEW I HAVE NOTICED THAT SACGS AS APPOSED TO THE MORE ESTABLISHED US GRADING COMPANIES ARE CURRENTLY OVERGRADING THE MODERN COINS

 

Hi PBOSS

 

I have to agree that consistancy is very important when it comes to grading coins.

 

It would be most interesting if you can post some pictures of these coins that are overgraded by SACGS.

 

I for one am totally NOT impressed by NGC's inconsistancy in the grading of South African coins. I also know of many other prominent collectors who share the same centiments.

 

Slabbing is important in this day and age, but I have to echo the centiments shared by Scott who previously stated that slabbing is robbing the collector of the true joy of collecting coins. Gone are the days when you can hold a coin in your hand, and appreciate what you are holding, for its history and beauty. Today its all about what the number is on the slab and not what the coin really is.

 

You even have sellers listing coins with only the NGC slab details and no picture of the coin, and guess what..... people are bidding based on what the details are, rather than what the coin looks like. Its like a car dealer selling a car with the description, excellent condition, virtually like brand new, with no picture of the car, and you buy it based on what he says. Would you buy the car... NO

 

 

Cheers

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Dulal

Dulal

 

I cannot comment for other dealers but if an organisation adds value and benefit, then I do see any reason why they should not join. SAAND is a body/organisation for registered Numismatic Dealers and is NOT a coin collectors club or society. There is a big difference between a coin collectors club and a Numismatic Dealers Association. I can tell you now there are quite a few coin clubs in South Africa.

  • The Natal Numismatic Society
  • The Pietermartizburg Numismatic Society
  • The Border Numismatic Society
  • The South African Numismatic Society (Cape Town)
  • The National Numismatic Society (JHB)
  • The Bloemfontein Numismatic Society

Over and above these societies, there are Militaria/Medal societies that are also in operation in South Africa and they meet regularly as well.

 

All of these societies belong to an organisation called "The Association Of South African Numismatic Societies" (ASANS). This organisation represents organised numismatics within South Africa. The organisation handles cases/problems at a National Level on behalf of the regional Numismatic Societies for its members, like "Capital Gains Tax", SARS issues, Second Hand Goods Act etc.... It is non profit, and each Numismatic Society pays an annual fee to ASANS.

 

ASANS engaged an advocate some time back to fight SARS on the Captial Gains Tax issue regarding coins. ASANS was successful with this. If a Numismatic Society had to do this on their own, it would not have the same impact as an association representing all societies collectively. ASANS also produces a numismatic journal from time to time.

 

SAAND and ASANS are two seperate entities with different constitutions, one representing Numismatic Dealers and the other representing Numismatic Societies.

 

With all that said, these numismatic societies are open to everyone with a small annual membership fee. These Numismatic Societies meet from time to time and send out regular newsletters. I am not sure the frequency they meet. I can comment with regards to Natal, The Natal Numismatic Society meets on the 4th Monday of every month and the PMB Numismatic Society meets on the 1st Thursday of every month.

 

At the Natal Society, we have a talk every month and at the end of the meeting members bring in items that we auction off during tea.

 

 

Cheers

 

Hi Anthony

Thanks for information.

 

Dulal

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Vertigo

Hi Again Anthony ,

 

I Am Not Against Sacgs , However I Feel That From A Worldwide Perspective That The Top 3 Companies Being "recognised By International Numismats" Have The Upper Hand Over Our Local Boys.

 

Sacgs Have Alot Of Spadework To Do In Order For Them To Become World Renown ,

 

Using A Similar Example About Buying A Car ,

Would You Service Your Car At A Service Agent With A Great Reputation , Or A New Service Centre That Just Opened Up Without Any Track Record.

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4kids

Would You Service Your Car At A Service Agent With A Great Reputation , Or A New Service Centre That Just Opened Up Without Any Track Record.

 

Even the most powerfull, financial stable and honest compnies and ventures has a beginning without a track record. Show me the person that started out in life with an excellent track record and I'll show you "old money"

 

I recently bought a graded 1955 2S MS65 which was graded by SAGS here on BoB as I wanted to compare the grading with my already graded QEII 2 shillings with both NGC and PCGS. I am pleased to report that the grading is spot on against 11 coins in the same grade from the more well known companies. If I wanted to be petty I could have complained that the coin SACGS graded was overgraded by one point cosidering that the coin has a more prominent bag mark than others. However the coin makes up in it's appeal the point that would have been lost because of the bag mark i.e. somwhat better in looks than the NGC and PCGS MS65's

 

Now it is only one coin for comparison and many more coins would need to be compared to warrant my obeservation. I for one would certainly consider sending at least some coins for grading to SACGS based on what I have seen so far.

 

So I now start the begining of a track record and trust that I never get proven wrong.

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coinoisseur
Using A Similar Example About Buying A Car ,

Would You Service Your Car At A Service Agent With A Great Reputation , Or A New Service Centre That Just Opened Up Without Any Track Record.

 

Yes I would use the company if it offers the same service at cheaper rates....

 

 

 

Cheers

 

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RISadler

I checked the website of SACGS and here's my problem... it does not have a serial number checking facility. C'mon people, if you want to play with the big boys, stop having your website(s) done by the ten-year-old nephew.

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4kids
I checked the website of SACGS and here's my problem... it does not have a serial number checking facility. C'mon people, if you want to play with the big boys, stop having your website(s) done by the ten-year-old nephew.

 

It is my understanding that all these issues will be addressed over the following months. Personally I think that there is a lot to be done and some hard work involved in getting all these things up to scratch. The problem here is that SACGS has been banned on the forum because Herman is somewhat of a controversialist and unable to post responses on this forum but he is obviously able to read the responses and issues posted here and trust that he is taking all the negative things said and using it to his advantage in making SACGS work.

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RISadler

One word: prioritise.

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qball
I checked the website of SACGS and here's my problem... it does not have a serial number checking facility. C'mon people, if you want to play with the big boys, stop having your website(s) done by the ten-year-old nephew.

 

Please refrain from making personal comments about users. Should this continue I will have to issue a warning.

 

Thank you

Cuan

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