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geejay50

Calling all true collectors - A South African Collectors Society

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geejay50

Hello all Collectors,

 

We have been talking about this for a while and need to put substance to it.

 

We the collectors of coins ,notes, medals and tokens of South Africa need a body that represents us at national level.

 

We need this because we have different aims and philosophies to the professional dealers as represented by SAAND.

 

We are the lifeblood of this hobby.

Without us, any coin show is dead meat whatever anybody attempts to portray.

 

Whilst we may sell amongst ourselves , this is largely done to upgrade our collections.It is not merely to speculate.

 

Our ethic should be that of extending our knowledge and by helping each other in good faith, discover the true richness in our hobby. Friendships will follow on this common ground.

 

We have the most to gain by showing and sharing what we have with much dedication and sacrifice put together. Our collections as a whole should not just be squirreled away thus becoming lost to all to enjoy.

 

Hence we should have our own coin shows where we can meet and enjoy each other's collections in a relaxed safe environment without feeling we are standing on the toes of SAAND . Any recognised conference centre will be suitable with families welcome.

 

I propose the name of this body should be THE SOUTH AFRICAN COLLECTORS SOCIETY.

 

Membership will be by application to the steering committee and if successful, the member will be invited to join.

 

Benefits of membership will include ;

 

24 hour hotline to give opinions on fair prices for members thus stopping the exploitation of our members by the unscrupulous.

Help with grading at third party grading companies.

The monitoring of postal and courier fraud.

Second opinions on gradability of coins sourced by members.

Information about forgeries and literature on rare coins.

Information on upcoming foreign auctions.

Better listing costs for members to be negotiated with Bidorbuy.

Possibility of using Paypal via FNB to receive money on eBay auctions.

Education of the public about collectables as they relate to History thus broadening the market.

 

I call on all collectors to stand up as one and enjoy our awesome riches together. We have a National Asset to be proud of and this should be recognised as such.

 

Please respond to this posting and give us your views.

 

Geejay

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saiedm

Well done

 

Something like this is long overdue. I have been ripped off and overcharged by certain SAAND dealers. And this is sad as I am not collecting coins for the short term profit, but more for the passion in owing rare coins.

 

The best advice I received was from collectors who have become personal friends and together we have shared stories of how we have collected many of coins currently in our collection.

 

I am 100% behind you. What a pleasure it would be to be on the golfing greens doing swops and discussing the future of our collection.

 

Please count me in. :D

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rvswartz

Great idea...

 

I just think the name should say what we're collecting.

 

THE SOUTH AFRICAN COLLECTORS SOCIETY is a bit vague...

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Guest Guest

Hi Georg

 

I would certainly be interested. I am not a member of any numismatic society in South Africa at the moment mainly because of distance, but also because I have never been invited since I moved to Australia. I think the "collectors society" you are suggesting should embrace a whole gambit of outside collecting interests including philately, antiquarian books and documents, artifacts and old maps etc..

 

Many collectors have diverse collections cutting across from coins to something seemingly unrelated. In my case my passion is anything to do with early South African history - with a focus on the Griqua.

 

I also think that the society should have a panel who independentlyt investigate elements of history that have been challenged or been shown to be incorrect but continue to be presented without change by SAAND etc regardless of the facts. In my case you will be aware of the particular issue I am talking about.

 

The integrity of our passion, our hobby, requires that historical fact is the foundation of our collecting. Debating historical accuracy as it relates to our hobby should be encouraged because it creates interest and discussion - giving us a richer understanding of our collections.

 

BTW one of Australia's leading weekly TV programmes is called Collectors. The programme also covers people who collect the weirdest things!

 

See: Collectors (ABC TV)

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

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BumbleBee

Awesome idea! Will this organisation also include the "little guys" who are starting or thinking about starting up a collection?

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Pierre_Henri

SA Coin Collectors society

 

I don't think a broader collectors society (as suggested by Scott) will work. I have absolutely no interest in Royal Dalton, collecting burrerflies or model lead soldiers.

 

But a true COIN-collectors society will certainly work.

 

I have been a member of the SA Numismatic society (who is actually the Cape Town society who took the name (SA) because in the early days they were the ONLY society in SA) since my school days.

 

The problem is that their meetings takes place in Sea Point at night and that is not convenient for members from the Northen Suberbs. So for the last ten or so years I had no contact with other coin collectors untill I descovered this Bid-or-Buy forum though which I met other collectors.

 

But there must be a need for a coin collectors society at national level because the other societies are very regionally orientated --; who actually caters for Oom Piet in Pofadder or Tannie Mary from Pelgrimsrust?

 

If Oom Piet and Tannie Mary have internet access and e-mail facility they don't have to live in Sea Point, Johannesburg or Durban to join a society, but can join a national society with national membership (even international for those overseas members who collects SA coins)

 

So yes, I am all for it, but no if it will be a "we collect everything" society.

 

So how do we proceed from here?

 

Pierre

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Guest Guest

Hi Pierre

 

I will tell you the quandry I have.

 

I have spent many years researching a subject that has been discussed here ad nausium but has never been resolved. As you would know I have issued an open challenge since 2006 to the "experts" like Hern to debate this issue with me in a public forum but there have been no takers, just a few personal swipes made in the distant past.

 

My frustration is that Hern keeps on being referred to as the font of all knowledge when clearly he is not. If he was he would leap at my challenge because I would be "exposed".

 

Not only has he not taken up the challenge but he refuses to respond to any communication I make. He continues to issue books on coins which are not, in my view, historically correct when it comes to the Griquatown pieces. He knows this. This fact, sadly, puts his entire book in doubt because it is a valuable resource. I note, in a recent post, that Hern sold two Griquatown coins for ZAR55,000 each.

 

Just like we have argued grades here on NGC is not the history and numismatic relevance of our key coins an issue that should be debated and resolved? It is my love for my hobby that has been the driving force behind years of research and yet a single snide comment can distract from its importance. Is that fair?

 

To get to the very roots of the facts requires years of research through old books, letters and documents. This is where the cross over comes - the broadening of collecting to cover all major areas would create an amazing resource.

 

In a society such as you suggest the raw drive for truth should be one of its key goals. With a national society representing collectors across South Africa hopefully the fragmentation issue would be resolved and the so-called experts in "all things" be challenged where it matters.

 

For the record the idea of a public debate on the matter was first discussed by me personally with Dr Paul Bayliss of the ABSA Bank Museum in Johannesburg over a cup of tea on the afternoon of the 2nd September 2006. Paul was going to try to set it up but it never happened. I have raised the challenge here on BoB and elsewhere on many occasions since then.

 

Kind regards

 

 

Scott Balson

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Dulal

collectors society

 

I don't think a broader collectors society (as suggested by Scott) will work. I have absolutely no interest in Royal Dalton, collecting burrerflies or model lead soldiers.

 

But a true COIN-collectors society will certainly work.

 

I have been a member of the SA Numismatic society (who is actually the Cape Town society who took the name (SA) because in the early days they were the ONLY society in SA) since my school days.

 

The problem is that their meetings takes place in Sea Point at night and that is not convenient for members from the Northen Suberbs. So for the last ten or so years I had no contact with other coin collectors untill I descovered this Bid-or-Buy forum though which I met other collectors.

 

But there must be a need for a coin collectors society at national level because the other societies are very regionally orientated --; who actually caters for Oom Piet in Pofadder or Tannie Mary from Pelgrimsrust?

 

If Oom Piet and Tannie Mary have internet access and e-mail facility they don't have to live in Sea Point, Johannesburg or Durban to join a society, but can join a national society with national membership (even international for those overseas members who collects SA coins)

 

So yes, I am all for it, but no if it will be a "we collect everything" society.

 

So how do we proceed from here?

 

Pierre

 

 

 

I agree with Pierre.

But, of course, if somebody lateron take a drive to create Federation Of Collectors Society can be discussed at later stage.

Thanks Geeja for excellent time based idea and initiative.

 

Dulal

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ALJADA
Hello all Collectors,

 

We have been talking about this for a while and need to put substance to it.

 

We the collectors of coins ,notes, medals and tokens of South Africa need a body that represents us at national level.

 

We need this because we have different aims and philosophies to the professional dealers as represented by SAAND.

 

We are the lifeblood of this hobby.

Without us, any coin show is dead meat whatever anybody attempts to portray.

 

Whilst we may sell amongst ourselves , this is largely done to upgrade our collections.It is not merely to speculate.

 

 

I call on all collectors to stand up as one and enjoy our awesome riches together. We have a National Asset to be proud of and this should be recognised as such.

 

Please respond to this posting and give us your views.

 

Geejay

 

Georg,

 

Magnificent stuff!! I would be more than happy to help with the knowledge base for such an endeavour or anything else numismatic if requested of me. Do I stand a chance at becoming a member?

 

Cheers

Alex

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Guest Guest

Alex I think you would have a good chance of getting the "number one membership card"..

 

Scott Balson

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qball

Hi All

 

Please leave personal comments out of this.

 

Thank you

Cuan

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EWAAN Galleries

Hi All

 

I totally agree with Pierre that it should be numismatics items only - The South African Numismatic Collectors Society (SANCS)

 

Here is a question??

 

I am a collector of world gold coins.

 

Some of them are absolutely stunning. I do like the ZAR and Union coins also but my main passion is gold coins, I love all gold coins from all over the world.

 

I am not a coin dealer but this is a hobby which I'm loving.

 

Would I be able to join then if I collect gold coins mainly?

 

I will sponsor the first get together myself - we can go fishing, hunting or to the Kruger Park - sounds fun to have a nice get together with fellow collectors. We should plan this for immediately after the World Cup. I will be going to Turkey next and back only in 3 weeks time. I would appreciate if you guys could keep me posted. I have some friends over in Turkey who would also like to know more about SA coins as they would like to get involved.

 

Sounds Great - I Hope this Collectors Society Works Though - it will only work well if we have the right team in charge.

 

Best Regards,

 

Muhammad Seedat

 

EWAAN Auction Galleries

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Pierre_Henri

Thank you Muhammad

 

I will sponsor the first get together myself - we can go fishing, hunting or go to the Kruger Park - sounds fun to have a nice get together with fellow collectors. We should plan this for immediately after the World Cup.

 

Muhammad, that is a super friendly gesture from your side. Almost unheard of in today's world where only the larger sports (soccer, rugby, motorsport etc.) and hobbies are attracting any sponsorships.

 

I have said this many times on this forum - that if you are not a true collector by heart (collecting coins in our instance) then you will never be a good or successful numismatic investor or even dealer.

 

Whatever, the problem I forsee is that we cannot share personal information on this forum to connect and start up the organization.

 

So regarding my question above "How do we proceed from here"? - maybe the BoB-team can advise us what we can and cannot share here to start this up. For example, would it be OK if I send you a personal message (or someone else send me one) regarding ideas we might have how to start up a Coin Collectors Society in South Africa and organize (for example) a get together?

 

I know that BoB was extremely helpful with some of the SAAND shows, but regarding a collectors society (as apose to a dealers society) I am not sure how BoB will feel.

 

The one single thing I do not want from this endeavour, is some back biting and back stabbing and "you said this" and "I said that" and the whole cancerous bla-bla-bla that have been huanting the SA Numismatic Community over recent times.

 

Then I am out of this immidiately

 

Pierre

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Norgard

Hi

 

I am in, but yes the question is how do we procede from here?

 

 

Regards,

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Bellcoin

in please -say no more

what can i do to help?

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MsPlod

First step

 

I should think that the first step would be to draw up a "straw dog" constitution for comment?

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Guest Guest

Pierre

 

The easiest way to establish the society is to have a simple web page designed which carries documents like the constitution, member application forms and news. Monthly newsletters could be carried in PDF form. I would suggest that you also have a few emails under that domain.

 

The website would be a central point from which anyone could print out and email, post or fax documents to the society's secretary, and a central point the secretary could use to post news for members to view and download.

 

I would also suggest that the society has a Paypal account so that overseas members can pay membership fees that way.

 

I can certainly help with developing and hosting the website at no cost to the society. The only cost would be the domain name, such as.. sancs.co.za which is currently still available.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

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ECONOZONE

This is a great idea, just what is needed an internet based society.

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geejay50

Hello all Collectors,

 

Thanks for your big response to this issue.

 

I need a few core issues sorted out for such a society to work.

 

1) What criteria to use to invite membership?

 

2) Security of a proposed website - only members must have access - the title of the website sancs.co.za has been accessed for this purpose.

 

3) Details of planned get togethers must remain for members only.This will prevent gate crashing and improve safety of collector's items at the venue.

 

5)I have no problem with the name as SOUTH AFRICAN NUMISMATIC SOCIETY on the understanding that it caters for collectors of coins,tokens and medallions.

 

6)The election of a chairman and his term of office. I suggest that be decided by vote at the first get together. In the meantime I will offer my services as a stand in chairman.

 

Geejay

 

 

 

 

 

 

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EWAAN Galleries

Hi Geejay

 

 

The South African Numismatic Collectors Society :)

 

 

Also I think Georg is to be trusted as chairman of the society as he is straight forward and honest.... Lets see what other say!

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

EWAAN Auction Galleries

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Guest Guest

Suggestions

 

Marketing the club

Why not approach BoB to sponsor the website by having a promo link to it? In exchange the website could have a banner promoting BoB on the home page. There are hundreds of coin collectors using BoB and BoB would definately benefit from a sponsorship banner on the collectors web site. SANCS could also promote a weekly top coin listing on BoB.. drawing interest. This could be a short term cross-promotion, to be renegotiated say six months down the track.

1) What criteria to use to invite membership?

 

Perhaps start with an information brochure circulated to members of South African numismatic clubs and approach well known S A coin collectors to act as a "brain trust" during the early stages of development. See marketing the club above.

 

2) Security of a proposed website - only members must have access - the title of the website sancs.co.za has been accessed for this purpose.

 

I would suggest that you have a public area and a membership area. If I was you I would start with a public area where prospective members could acccess membership forms and information on the club. The secure area would hold information seen as secure and include minutes of meetings, email correspondence etc. It would be great to have a tie in with Alex's reseach on Union coins and others electronic data in the secure area - drawing membership.

 

3) Details of planned get togethers must remain for members only.This will prevent gate crashing and improve safety of collector's items at the venue.

 

This would be difficult to monitor. It just takes one member to breach the user/password security by giving it to a couple of friends to cause a potential issue in this regard. Selection of a secure venue would be critical - I think Anthony might have some experience in this area. I think a secure area on the website is a sound idea - but not foolproof!

 

5)I have no problem with the name as SOUTH AFRICAN NUMISMATIC SOCIETY on the understanding that it caters for collectors of coins, tokens and medallions.

 

I suggest that you add bank notes to the list. As a numismatic society your suggestion is spot on!

 

6)The election of a chairman and his term of office. I suggest that be decided by vote at the first get together. In the meantime I will offer my services as a stand in chairman.

 

The committee could be established at the first meeting of the society. In my humble opinion I agree with EWAAN on this issue.

 

Bank account

For it to be practical for potential overseas members I suggest the establishment of a Paypal account. Not only could this be used for membership fees but also for absentee bidding on coins sold at meetings.

 

Logo design

Any graphics designers out there? Maybe a competition with a valueable coin donated by someone as the prize to the succesful designer.

 

Hope my suggestions help.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

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geejay50

Hi Everyone,

 

We must keep this simple,personal and clean, that is the essence.

 

Many of us distrust websites that can be hacked into. Apparent security is not real security.

 

Even if it comes down to phone calls to arrange a meeting.

 

Collectors have been crooked by speculators to the detriment of the hobby for too long.

 

Smaller will be better in the begining.

 

Geejay.

 

 

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Guest Guest

Hi Georg

 

I have been building websites for major clients in Australia for over 15 years and never had one hacked into. In fact my server has a hacking strategy - it is simple. It works like this. To hack a website or emails you have to try thousands of password computations before you hit the jackpot. Software bots hurl thousands of computations at a server every minute until it gets the right combination - that is how a website or email is hacked. Our server blocks any IP address (anyone using the Internet has one) as soon as just five incorrect passwords have been sent. You will notice that email programmes like gmail ask you to match a text graphic to send your password - that gets around the software bots because they do NOT have a blocking option like our servers do.

 

The simple truth is a website or email normally gets hacked when there is slack security by the company or individual holding these passwords. They are often leaked when a staff member is fired from a web building company. In our case only I have access to the passwords - the buck stops with me.

 

The website, which anyone can establish or host (I only offered to help), should only hold information that societies would normally circulate to their members each month in the "secure" members side of the website. Like these circulated brochures NOTHING is secure once it is published. This includes phone calls - because members might write that information down somewhere and it could fall into the wrong hands. Depends how far you want to take the paranoia!

 

A website makes a lot of sense for an international or even national South African society because anyone can access it. Much easier than a geographically limited local society and its localised needs.

 

But there again maybe in some people's eyes I don't know what I am talking about or am a "speculator" and not to be trusted. So be it. Those who know me know my real passion for my hobby.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

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Dulal
Hi Geejay

 

 

The South African Numismatic Collectors Society :)

 

 

Also I think Georg is to be trusted as chairman of the society as he is straight forward and honest.... Lets see what other say!

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

EWAAN Auction Galleries

 

I also beleive GEORGE can start as a leader chair;

and thanks to Mr Seedat for his kind offer to sponsor, which are crucial for start-up of any organization.

 

 

Dulal

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Dulal

The one single thing I do not want from this endeavour, is some back biting and back stabbing and "you said this" and "I said that" and the whole cancerous bla-bla-bla that have been huanting the SA Numismatic Community over recent times.

 

Then I am out of this immidiately

 

Pierre

 

Thanks Pierre for your kind remainder once again.

we already had enough of those l a b - l a b - l a b. so please do not demotivate the newcomer like me. we are here to listen your expert voices, so we can learn and grow; not to be chased way.

 

Dulal

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