Griquatown 100 Pence

[geejay50 10]

Hello all,

 

I am sure you are all familiar with the 1815/16 Griqua coins that were made by Rev Campbell of the London Missionary Society in the UK before being used as currency by the Griqua people and as Brian Hern says on pg 302 of his Catalogue 'This series of coins was the first minted for and used by a South African people. ' He also says that 'this is the first decimal series used in South Africa'

 

Well there have been proofs of these coins minted as well and have been graded by the Grading Companies. Even a gilded one has been graded and is I think part of the Royle Baldwin Collection.Obviously the proofs were not made for circulation and did not.

 

An old friend of mine sent this coin to me recently to show the community.

It weighs 6.39 gms and is of copper metal that has been darkened, measurements 25.2mm by 1.5mm in thickness

The fields have rainbow toning and are clearly Proof and the letters are razor sharp.

 

Average Weights/Thickness/Diameters recorded for Griqua Coin denominations are as follows 1/4 Pence 3.63gm/1.33mm/20.76mm, 1/2 Pence 6.20gm/1.46mm/24.86mm, 5 Pence 2.37gm/0.66mm/20.96mm, 10 Pence 4.90gm/1.06mm/25.90mm

 

This coin has specifications that closest resemble the Halfpence

 

 

There is no 100 Pence in Hern's Catalogue and the highest denomination was a 10 Pence in Silver,Next up was the Five Pence followed by the half and quarter.I enclose pics.

 

The cardboard holder that the coin comes with says J. Remick PE-265 'only a few specimens of the higher denominations known' I presume this coin was part of the well known Jerome Remick Collection that includes many top quality South African Coins. Jerome Remick was the founder of the Canadian Numismatic Society in Montreal.

 

Has anyone got comments on this coin? Please dont bore us with the old argument about whether the Griqua coins circulated or not. That subject has been discusssed at length and if I can ask management to delete postings that lead this way. It is this coin that the discussion must focus on.

 

Regards

Geejay

[Mike Klee 14]

Dear Georg,

 

For my money's worth, I think this is a fake:

1. the dove's head on the "GQT 100" pence is facing the opposite direction to that of all the known GQT denominations

2. the dove's feet/talons are massively oversized compared with the known GQT denominations

3. the dove wing feathers of the "GQT 100" pence are completely different to those of the known GQT denominations

The differences outlined above would - to me, at least - make this "GQT 100" pence highly suspect. It is almost as if it was clumsily made. A pity, as a denomination of "100" would provide a tempting indicator that the original GQT series was intentionally decimalised......

Mike Klee

[Guest Guest]

It is a fake

 

Scott Balson

[geejay50 10]

Hi Mike and Scott,

 

You guys are spot on , it is a fake that was made in California by somebody in the 1970s and sold as a fake according to Brian Hern- the Dove has his head facing the wrong way as you correctly noted Mike and the feet are different. It is however of interest that people would regard this series as notable enough to make fakes of. Here are the pics of two genuine GQT Halfpences - MS62BN (pop1) and VF35 to illustrate. Has anybody seen this Fake before? Well spotted!

 

Georg

[Guest Guest]

Facts

 

Georg

 

Interesting to know that Brian Hern is your noted "expert" on the Griquatown coins seeing that he still refuses to accept historically proven fact on this subject.

 

PS the 100 Griqua coin was offered for sale a few years ago on eBay by an American seller with a reserve of US$3,000 - it had no bidders.

 

Cheers

 

Scott Balson (Speaking after thirty years of research on the Griqua and Griquatown coinage)

[geejay50 10]

Hi all,

 

Fake it is and well made too with Proof finish. Besides Scott, has anyone else seen it before? It seems to be very rare even as a fake goes.

 

Brian Hern has just sold two Griqua coins, an MS Halfpence and a SP64 Quarter Pence for R55,000 each after a week of advertising. He says he could have sold each coin three times over, such was the demand and one collector is very angry because he could not buy both. I suppose that price is cheap compared to what Northeast Numismatics fetched a couple of years ago (about R70 to R80,000).

 

Geejay

[Guest Guest]

Unanswered questions answered

 

Interesting Georg.

 

The sale of the Griquatown tokens by Hern answers so many previously unanswered questions.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

[Guest Guest]

Here is the Griquatown 100 coin offered for sale on eBay a few years ago by an American seller (known to me) http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/949/1443949_100603092809_gr100b.jpg

 

As I said before there were no bidders

 

As with any Griquatown coin be careful what you are paying big bucks for. Know the historical facts.

Scott Balson

[4kids 10]

Hi Georg.

 

I also saw this piece on Ebay about two/three years ago. The seller is known to Michael Laidlaw as I had a long conversation with him at the time about the piece. Perhaps he can help you on the subject.

[Pierre_Henri 92]

Griqua coinage found in Kimberley

 

Hi George

 

I think it was you who mentioned that a Griqua coin was found near Worcester? Is that the (same) one that was found near Matjiesfontein that was somewhere described as the only one ever to be found in South Africa?

 

I see in their Beasts, banknotes and the colour of money in colonial South Africa, Jean Comaroff and John L. Comaroff, (Archaeological Dialogues (2005), 12 : pp 107-132 Copyright © 2006 Cambridge University Press), it is mentioned that more examples of the Griqua coinage turned up in places like Kimberley.

 

Regards

 

Pierre

[Mike Klee 14]

Hi Pierre,

 

As I have mentioned in a previous post, not a few GQT coins have turned up in South Africa. I have seen a friend's silver "10" - which was included in a trove of exclusively pre-19th century coins found in antique furniture - plus, I have had a retiree from the OFS and now living in Mossel Bay who has one in his collection AND I read somewhere how somebody had bought a GQT bronze coin in a flea market or something like that in Cape Town a year or two back.

 

I think that more will turn up.....

 

Mike Klee

[Pierre_Henri 92]

Hi Mike

 

I think you may have misunderstood me - I am talking about them turning up in the country side (in the platteland) as in picking them up where they may have been dropped by locals or travelling salesmen.

 

On the other hand, them turning up in old collections or hoards in South Africa is nothing new - I sold a well circulated one myself here on Bid-or-Buy coming from a bag of old pennies and half pennies that I bought in Cape Town a few years back.

 

Regards

 

Pierre

[Mike Klee 14]

Hi Pierre,

 

1. Oh, OK......it is just at times that I seem to see myself as an oddball in believing that the GQT pieces circulated as currency in the interior of South Africa. Too many of them turning up, and many so very, very worn - just like old pennies from the early 1800's. Out of interest, have you ever seen a worn GQT silver coin? Is it possible that the missionaries in GQT managed to "disperse" all the copper pieces, which is maybe why so many worn GQT coins keep turning up?

 

2. I paid to rent the article you mentioned but have access hassles to the article which Cambridge - via an online form - will attempt to resolve. Otherwise my £3.99 investemt in the article for 24 hours will be wasted...

 

3. Lastly, "welcome back"! I was quite sad to see your post "I'm out of here...."

 

Mike

[ATOMICSQUIRREL 10]

If it was real, it would be BIG BUCKS!:nuts:

[Cold Sea 6]

Not sure if it is the same seller, but the coin is back on e-bay.

[Pierre_Henri 92]

In the middle we have the original coin showing the Dove of Peace.

On the left we have the Otto Nolte issue / example of 60 years later - a salesman sample struck for soliciting coins  to be ordered from their private mint many years after the original coins were struck in 1816.  

On the right we have the 100 "pence" piece - a disgustedly looking piece of nonsense.

  

[Mike Klee 14]

In the context of the actual early 19th Century GQT coinage minted being in denominations of 1/4, 1/2, 5 (silver) & 10 (silver), a modern fantasy wannabe with "100" doesn't even fit into place. This is a further indication of what an ill-conceived abomination this "100" imitation (?) represents......