Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
MsPlod

Finest known...??

Recommended Posts

MsPlod

I am truly confused!

 

In my understanding the term "finest known" means that a single coin stands above any other coin of that mintage ever graded. Thus - the term - "second finest known" would indicate a coin that is the second most worthy coin of that mintage.

 

Looking through coins earlier - I spotted a "second finest known". Reading the fine print, I saw under the photograph of the coin the following... Serial number may differ. So I asked a question - remember I am fairly naive - but I do like to know things;).

 

My question:

Your question was;

Could you explain how the serial number could differ? Are there more than one of these coins which are "second finest known"?

Thank you

 

The answer is;

Hi the pf70 is finest known ,,,, pf69 second finest know etc , yes there are a few graded finest, second finest, 3rd etc ,,,,, check out the census pop reports on the ncgcoin website. Look for the world coin census on thesr1 coins. Note this coin has a maximum mintage of 6000. Not 5 million like the birthday coins.

 

OK, so I would have thought that the PF70 would be the finest GRADE - of which there might be a single finest known?

 

Most confused...

 

Any help from this wonderful community?:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
BumbleBee

MsPlod

 

I think you are correct, PF70 is the finest GRADE.

 

If I understand your description of the listing correctly then this fellow is either intentionally misrepresenting the item or just has no idea what he is talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
barbaro

My understanding of grading, which is very limited is that mant coins can be graded pf-70 or 69 etc. I could be wrong but then if a coin is graded pf-70 and then the grading company grades another coin that is worthy of a pf-70 rating, do they contact the owner of the first pf-70 graded coin so that they can change the grading of that coin???? Pretty sure that the answer is no....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MsPlod

Here you go...

 

MsPlod

 

I think you are correct, PF70 is the finest GRADE.

 

If I understand your description of the listing correctly then this fellow is either intentionally misrepresenting the item or just has no idea what he is talking about.

 

Here is the auction description...

 

F W De Klerk 2007 Silver R1 graded by NGC PF69 Ultra Cameo. Second Finest Known !!!

 

 

The SELLER'S answer;

Hi the pf70 is finest known ,,,, pf69 second finest know etc , yes there are a few graded finest, second finest, 3rd etc ,,,,, check out the census pop reports on the ncgcoin website. ...

 

Indicates to me that he/she believes that ALL PF70s are finest known, ALL PF69s are second finest known, etc...

 

I'll go back to them and ask...:)

 

Which I did... and here is my question and the answer:

 

Your question was;

Please forgive me asking more about this, but are you saying that ALL PF70s are finest known, ALL PF69s are second finest known, etc...?

 

The answer is;

WELL, MOSTLY , HOWEVER , I HAVE A PF69 SOCCER (BAFANA) PF69 WHICH IS POP1 , MEANING FINEST KNOWN , I HAVE A 1956 POUND PF67 ALSO FINEST KNOWN , 1945 TICKEY MS65 , FINEST KNOWN CHECK THE POP REPORTS ON NGCCOIN DOT COM

 

Hmmmm....:confused:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rare NotesCoins

A finest known coin is just the highest graded coin for that spesific year and denomination. It could be a AU55 ot a MS70.

 

Pop 1 means this is the only coin in that grade, being alone a AU55 Or MS70. there is no oyher coins in that grade

 

Hope that helps

 

Rare NotesCoins

Morne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MsPlod

You're a star!

 

A finest known coin is just the highest graded coin for that spesific year and denomination. It could be a AU55 ot a MS70.

 

Pop 1 means this is the only coin in that grade, being alone a AU55 Or MS70. there is no oyher coins in that grade

 

Hope that helps

 

Rare NotesCoins

Morne

 

Many thanks Morne - that definitely helps! I think I will direct the seller to this thread so s/he can understand the definitions too.:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither

For most South African or for that matter, non-US coins, there is no reason to pay any attention to what the highest known coin is and the same applies to those that are second, third and so forth.

 

To understand whether that is meaningful it is necessary to evaluate the current census and then determine the likelihood of additional specimens surfacing which might surpass the current "finest known" coin.

 

For MOST coins that are not from the United States, the census populations are low primarily for two reasons. First, because collectors prefer their coins ungraded and second, because the economics of grading them are not worthwhile.

 

South Africa is different in both respects, at least for many Union, ZAR and some RSA such as the Mandela coins in high enough MS grades. South Africa collectors have displayed both a preference for graded over raw coins and are willing to pay a substantial premium for them in many instances. To my knowledge, this is unique versus all other countries except the United States and possibly Canada.

 

However, even though the census populations are higher for South Africa versus other countries excluding the United States, most South African coins proportionately have many more coins remaining to be graded, though the exact number and the grades cannot be known in advance. This is no different than what happened in the United States subsequent to the creation of PCGS in 1986 and NGC in 1987. The census populations for South African coins have only increased substantially in the last five years or so and it takes a while for them to level out.

 

Now, this will vary by coin and date. For some such as KGV, the remaining numbers in higher grades (AU or MS) are likely generally low or very low. I believe they are higher than some others believe but this is mostly a matter of debating relatively minor differences. For other issues such as KGVI and QEII, the numbers are almost certainly much higher for most dates, both proportionately and absolutely.

 

For ZAR, the census populations are probably already large enough to get a much better idea on their actual and relative scarcity.

 

What this means from a practical standpoint to the original question is that someone buying a high grade ZAR coin has a much lower chance of having a higher graded specimen show up later than say, someone buying a coin in the same grade for a KGVI issue. Personally, I would not pay a big premium in absolute terms for a "top pop" versus a coin one grade or maybe two grades lower for any coin because I do not believe the economics are worthwhile at this stage of the cycle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

Hi John

 

What do you base this comment on?

 

However, even though the census populations are higher for South Africa versus other countries excluding the United States, most South African coins proportionately have many more coins remaining to be graded, though the exact number and the grades cannot be known in advance.

 

I thought South African collectors (unlike those in the US) had a predisposition to slab their coins.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dulal

Finest Known?

 

Hi

My understanding is-finest known can be more than one. Say 2000 Mandela R5 prof, only 3 are graded PF-69 and there is no coin graded as PF-70. Then all three PF-69 are regarded as finest known and belongs to POP-1. I might be wrong.

 

Dulal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rare NotesCoins

Hi. Finest known yes that is correct. No, pop 1 is incorrect. Pop 1 means out of all the coins graded for that specific coin. The highest graded coin is the only coin in that grade. There might be 100 MS69 and one MS70. The MS70 will be pop1 as their are no other coins sharing that grade.

 

Interesting is that people pay huge amounts for finest known and Pop 1 coins. My Pop 1 coins are now 3rd finest and sells for less that 1/3 what i originally paid for it. But SHI.. happens. I collect till I have all and will then upgrade. To pay R200 000 for a finest known were they minted enough coins (could find a better one) is not worthwill yet as that R200 000 can be me much more. Besides what if a new Pop1 comes allong. My coin will then be woth R50 000.

 

If it is a scarse coin like the MS Geejay was selling then yes, big diffrence as there are no other coins minted or a handfull. Now that is an Investment coin that people will forever talk about and wished they had owned

 

Regards Morne

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dulal
Hi. Finest known yes that is correct. No, pop 1 is incorrect. Pop 1 means out of all the coins graded for that specific coin. The highest graded coin is the only coin in that grade. There might be 100 MS69 and one MS70. The MS70 will be pop1 as their are no other coins sharing that grade.

 

Interesting is that people pay huge amounts for finest known and Pop 1 coins. My Pop 1 coins are now 3rd finest and sells for less that 1/3 what i originally paid for it. But SHI.. happens. I collect till I have all and will then upgrade. To pay R200 000 for a finest known were they minted enough coins (could find a better one) is not worthwill yet as that R200 000 can be me much more. Besides what if a new Pop1 comes allong. My coin will then be woth R50 000.

 

If it is a scarse coin like the MS Geejay was selling then yes, big diffrence as there are no other coins minted or a handfull. Now that is an Investment coin that people will forever talk about and wished they had owned

 

Regards Morne

 

Hi Morne

Thanks. Lets see what I learn today-

 

EXAMPLE:1

MS-70: 1; So Finest known, POP-1 (POPULATION OF 1 ? )

MS-69: 3; So 2nd finest, POP- 3 (POPULATION OF 3 ?)

MS-68: 7; so 3rd finest, POP- 7 (population of 7 ?)

MS-67: 2; so 4th finest, POP-2 (POPULATION OF 2?)

 

EXAMPLE: 2

MS- 70: 3; so finest known, POP-3 ( population of 3? )

MS- 69: 1; so 2nd finest, P0P-1 (POPULATION OF 1?)

MS- 68: 5; so 3rd finest, POP-5 (POPULATION OF 5 ?)

MS- 67: 2; so 4th finest, POP-2 (POPULATION OF 2? )

MS- 66: 1; so 5th finest, POP-1 (POPULATION OF 1?)

 

COMMENT IS EXPECTED.

 

Dulal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4kids

Dulal,

 

You are right on the button. However sellers are not versed in the Coin slang used and introduced by the Americans.

 

Example of how a coin should be described if you want to indicate the POP or Population of a coin.

 

1930 Two and Half Shilings MS64 for sale POP1 with one finer at MS65 - Means that there is only one in this grade (population) and obviously one finer.

 

or

 

1930 Two and Half Shillings MS62 POP6 with 4 x finer, 2 X MS62, 1 X MS64 and 1 x MS65 - Means 6 coins share the grade (population) and obviously he 4 finer coins are mentioned.

 

EXAMPLE:1

MS-70: 1; So Finest known, POP-1 (POPULATION OF 1 ? ) None Better

MS-69: 3; So 2nd finest, POP- 3 (POPULATION OF 3 ?) One finer at MS70

MS-68: 7; so 3rd finest, POP- 7 (population of 7 ?) 4 Finer, 3 X MS69, 1 x MS70

MS-67: 2; so 4th finest, POP-2 (POPULATION OF 2?) 11 Finer, 7 x MS68, 3 X ms69 and 1 X MS70

 

EXAMPLE: 2

MS- 70: 3; so finest known, POP-3 ( population of 3? ) EXACTLY

MS- 69: 1; so 2nd finest, P0P-1 (POPULATION OF 1?) with 3 X Finer at MS70

MS- 68: 5; so 3rd finest, POP-5 (POPULATION OF 5 ?) with 4 x Finer, 1 X ms 69 and 3 x MS70

MS- 67: 2; so 4th finest, POP-2 (POPULATION OF 2? ) With 9 Better 5 X MS68, 1 X MS69 and 3 X MS70

MS- 66: 1; so 5th finest, POP-1 (POPULATION OF 1?) with 11 Finer, 2 X MS67, 5 X MS68, 1 x MS69 and 3 Share finest known MS70

 

COMMENT IS EXPECTED.

 

Dulal

 

 

Regards

Jan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jwither
Hi John

 

What do you base this comment on?

 

 

 

I thought South African collectors (unlike those in the US) had a predisposition to slab their coins.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

 

Hi Scott,

 

The answer is yes, South Africa collectors do but this is in contrast to other NON-US collectors, not those from the US. My comment is an assumption but a reasonable one. As I said in my last post, it takes time for the census populations to reach maturity and I do not believe that has happened yet. This will vary of course by the specific coin. The best way to know that maturity has been reached and most coins for a given issue have been graded is if the coin is BOTH EXPENSIVE and the populations have not increased substantially for a reasonably long period of time (say, five years).

 

Practical reasons for this include:

 

Many coins are still not worth a lot of money and there is little economic benefit to grading them. This is even true now of many United States coins and anyone can confirm this by looking at the numbers.

 

On an absolute basis, many South Africa coins are owned by collectors who do not specialize in them or are not collectors at all. There is no way to know how many or which ones, but in both cases, they are uninformed on the real market prices. The best evidence of this is the fact that auction results (outside of BOB) are in many instances consistent with my statement and the bidders include professional numismatists.

 

Is it possible that I am wrong? Yes, it is but no one has any evidence to prove this either. And those who are buying coins TODAY based upon the ASSUMPTION that most or all high grade coins have been graded are likely to be disappointed in my opinion. The prices may increase anyway but they will find that the coins were not as scarce as they originally thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dulal
Dulal,

 

You are right on the button. However sellers are not versed in the Coin slang used and introduced by the Americans.

 

Example of how a coin should be described if you want to indicate the POP or Population of a coin.

 

1930 Two and Half Shilings MS64 for sale POP1 with one finer at MS65 - Means that there is only one in this grade (population) and obviously one finer.

 

or

 

1930 Two and Half Shillings MS62 POP6 with 4 x finer, 2 X MS62, 1 X MS64 and 1 x MS65 - Means 6 coins share the grade (population) and obviously he 4 finer coins are mentioned.

 

EXAMPLE:1

MS-70: 1; So Finest known, POP-1 (POPULATION OF 1 ? ) None Better

MS-69: 3; So 2nd finest, POP- 3 (POPULATION OF 3 ?) One finer at MS70

MS-68: 7; so 3rd finest, POP- 7 (population of 7 ?) 4 Finer, 3 X MS69, 1 x MS70

MS-67: 2; so 4th finest, POP-2 (POPULATION OF 2?) 11 Finer, 7 x MS68, 3 X ms69 and 1 X MS70

 

EXAMPLE: 2

MS- 70: 3; so finest known, POP-3 ( population of 3? ) EXACTLY

MS- 69: 1; so 2nd finest, P0P-1 (POPULATION OF 1?) with 3 X Finer at MS70

MS- 68: 5; so 3rd finest, POP-5 (POPULATION OF 5 ?) with 4 x Finer, 1 X ms 69 and 3 x MS70

MS- 67: 2; so 4th finest, POP-2 (POPULATION OF 2? ) With 9 Better 5 X MS68, 1 X MS69 and 3 X MS70

MS- 66: 1; so 5th finest, POP-1 (POPULATION OF 1?) with 11 Finer, 2 X MS67, 5 X MS68, 1 x MS69 and 3 Share finest known MS70

 

COMMENT IS EXPECTED.

 

Dulal

 

 

Regards

Jan

 

Hi Jan

Many thanks.

 

Dulal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×