New to coin and note collecting

[barbaro 10]

Hi everyone,

About 8 to 10 years ago I bought 5 proofed coins that I really like from an old man at a flea market. My outlay was minimal about R500 if I remember correctly. The idea was to continue collecting as I have always had a keen interest in coins and notes. I’m pretty sure you know what happened after that… Yes I didn’t buy another coin after that. A few days ago I went onto the BoB website and looked up the coins I purchased, and was rather shocked to see the prices that were being asked for the coins.

One of the things I noticed is that most of the coins are now being graded. I have seen companies like NGC and PCGS that do grading, and then I see that there is a HUGE process to submit a coin to be graded. One of my many questions is, is it necessary to have all these coins graded?

With the grading of coins part I see the grades are pf-60 to 70, pf being for proofed coins. But how can a proofed coin be graded if (the way I understand it) it is proofed and never been touched by human hands and supposedly in perfect condition? I have also seen grading called ms-60 to 70, which is mint state grading. My question here is; are ms graded coins just your normal coins that you can get at the bank and then sent in for grading? I read on a certain site that there is a R5 Mandela 90th birthday coin that has an ms rating of 69 and the coin is worth a ridiculous amount like $100k.

How can a person find out how many coins were produced in a proofed coin? For example, I have a coin that say that it’s limited to 3000 on the little note but I saw on a website that only 1600 were minted. How or where can I confirm what the exact figure is?

Thanks

[geejay50 10]

Hi Barbaro,

 

More than three coins means you have a collection I have read somewhere !!

 

The facts on mintage can be found in Hern's Catalogue which is available from Mr Brian Hern in Johannesburg. If you google his place coinshoppe you will get his details.

 

These facts on mintage are usually accurate.

 

The number of the various coins that have been graded by NGC and PCGS can be found through the websites of those companies where they have usually but not always reliable Population reports for every denomination. The quality spectrum can be found there as well. PCGS is usually free but NGC you have to pay to access.

 

Proof coins were made for collectors and were struck on specially highly polished dies with razor sharp details. They are not meant to be touched although when they are handled they become impaired .

 

Mint state coins are made for circulation but are not handled and worn. Contact marks with other coins result in these coins having a lower grade on the 60 to 70 scale but are still without wear.

 

The numerical grading has a bearing on price as with many spheres of collectibles, quality is what drives the market together with scarcity and story line.Expressing this quality numerically and the protection offered by the sealed perspex slab gives one an item of lasting value and sight unseen quality determined by a company not involved in buying and selling. It has been a vital tool in giving collectors clear value to their collections worldwide.

 

Thanks for your posting

 

Regards

Geejay

[jwither 13]

Proofs are not perfect coins even though not issued for circulation which is why they can grade below 70. And from my standpoint, a perfect coin is only a theoretical concept thogh I have not bothered to read the guidelines that ar eused in the US (where i live) on this subject.

[barbaro 10]

Thank you for the replies...

 

Is it necessary to have all coins graded? For example, i have a proofed 2003 protea series coin that was limited to 6000, there is a certificate from SA mint. I'm basically trying to find out how you know which coins should and shouldn't be graded.

[ECONOZONE 10]

You need to do your homework, buy the book and see the value of your coins then you can decide to grade or not.You can also see what others are selling theirs for on bid or buy.There is no one answer, you need to look at each coin and decide.Also be careful that they have not been cleaned or you are wasting your money to grade them.Its not straight forward as worn coins are also not always worth grading but if you have only proof coins this should not be a problem.

[barbaro 10]

Thanks.

[BumbleBee 10]

Hi barbaro, the Herns Catalogue is definitely a step in the right direction. Have a look around on BoB, there are a few floating around.

 

a little advice....this is a very addictive but very satisfying hobby, did I mention that it is very addictive?

[MsPlod 11]

Grading coins... and then selling them at a loss??

 

As a lapsed coin collector - and one who has rediscovered this (truly addictive:D) hobby, the whole concept of graded coins is fairly new.

 

What fascinates me is that many NGC graded coins are being sold - left right and centre on BoB - apparently for a great deal less than the actual cost of grading them? How is this possible? Are those folks who send coins off for grading (shipping costs too) hoping that a percentage of the coins will show a relatively high return and the remainder will simply cover the most of the cost of grading and shipping?

[barbaro 10]

Thanks again for all the replies.

 

MsPlod i was thinking the same thing about the pricing. How can you grade a coin that you not going to get your money back for. Ok it is a hobby/passion/addiction and most of these cost many and don't earn money, but still it just doesnt make sense.

 

Does this book tat was mentioned Hern's Catalogue also have any info about notes? I have a note that i kept be complete accident in miint condition too that i heard is rather rare. I would like to find how many of these notes are known to be out there..

[Pierre_Henri 60]

Question to all ...

 

What fascinates me is that many NGC graded coins are being sold - left right and centre on BoB - apparently for a great deal less than the actual cost of grading them? How is this possible?

 

I think it costs about R350 for a coin to be graded by NGC or PGCS - all costs included.

 

I have the same question than you - why do people send coins for grading at that price if it sells at 30% of that ...?

 

I am totaly flabbergasted at every Tom, **** and Harry sending coins off for grading that is worth - bear with me - a big zero plus a tiny percent....

 

The truth is - many fingers are being burnt every single day as the clock ticks - and nobody from the SA coin dealers society are willing to step in to stop this madness.

 

Some individual dealers like me have been worning about this (for example) Mandela coin grading frenzy for many many months - if not years, but nobody listens and nobody cares....

 

Pierre

[MsPlod 11]

Goodness gracious me!!!

 

I think it costs about R350 for a coin to be graded by NGC or PGCS - all costs included.

 

I have the same question than you - why do people send coins for grading at that price if it sells at 30% of that ...?

 

I am totaly flabbergasted at every Tom, **** and Harry sending coins off for grading that is worth - bear with me - a big zero plus a tiny percent....

 

The truth is - many fingers are being burnt every single day as the clock ticks - and nobody from the SA coin dealers society are willing to step in to stop this madness.

 

Some individual dealers like me have been worning about this (for example) Mandela coin grading frenzy for many many months - if not years, but nobody listens and nobody cares....

 

Pierre

!!!! ???? That is roughly 2x more than I thought it might cost to grade the coins. My estimate sat at around R185 per coin (if one sent more than 50 coins at a time). This is wild!

 

Thank you Pierre for answering the question - and for raising sooooo many more... :confused:

 

The issues raised (in a different thread) about the potential that RSA coins are being rated lower (or more harshly) than USA coins by NGC and PCGS (possibly to protect their local coin market???) makes one think that the South African coin collectors need to look more carefully at the post by ZARBOY in that same thread (if I remember correctly) at the move to grading coins here in South Africa.

 

This may be a VERY naive comment - but maybe if SACGS is better supported then it has the potential to become an internationally recognised grading firm??? (Please, no cannons, buckshot or hydrogen bombs - I am intrigued and maybe naive and "uninvolved" or "unconnected" enough to ask these questions...) I have no experience of (or with) SACGS.

[ECONOZONE 10]

MsPLOD

 

I think SACGS can grow into a recognised coin grading company but this will take time.They have to be very consistent with the grading and slowly but surely they will win people over.It is so much easier and cheaper to send coins to them.If they are consistent with there grading the market will come to see this over time and these coins should then fetch the same value as NGC graded coins.If they reach this stage then I do not see the point in grading with NGC ect but they still have to get there.

[barbaro 10]

I think my conclusion on grading coins will be; when i'm ready to sell a coin i will have it graded or when a coin is 10 years or older then i'll consider having it graded...

[4kids 10]

To Barbaro some clarification on mintage figures on special issues such as the Protea Series Silver R1.00 in both Proof and Uncirculated or "MS" Coins.

 

Every year the mint would design and issue a particular coin in both these grades and they plan to issue a particular amount of coins on each of the Proof and Uncirculated pieces. Say for instance the year 2020 they deside on a design of Schalk Burger standing on the Head of Victor Matfield to commemorate the Stormers win over the Bulls in 2010 super 14. - "just to spruce things up a bit"

 

They make a decision that the proof coins will be a mintage of 10 000 and the Uncirculated pieces would also have a mintage of 10 000 pieces. Now the ball is set in motion after the design is approved. Dies for the manufacturing are being sunk, printing and marketing material is ordered and the certificates are being made. Based on their previous experience three sets of dies for each of the coin types are made. Now keep in mind that the cost of these dies are very expensive.

 

So they start minting the proofs and after a mere 252 coins minted the first die breaks, Another die is now in use and after 1251 this die also breaks. So the third and final die gets used and breaks after 53 coins minted. The total would then be 1556. Everyone now thinks that there is ample of these coins around as a large mintage was planned for all the Stormers fans.

 

The same thing happens with the Uncirculated Pieces but the dies all broke after a mere 255 coins minted. Again everyone thinks that there would be 10 000 coins available for all the Stormers fans.

 

No new dies are made as this would have an further negative impact on the profitability of these coins.

 

Coins start getting into the market and 15 000 collectors decide that tomorrow would be a better day to buy theirs since there are so many to go around.

 

Now the Mint only provide the writers of the Handbook such as Hern's Handbook with the final mintage figures around three to four years after the fact. Don't ask why, it is just the way they do things.

 

Now does the picture get any clearer?

 

For example the 2009 Handbook does not show any mintage figures on the 2006 R1-00 Silver coins but I know that the correct figures for the Uncirculated or MS coins is a mere 390 pieces making this coin a rare and difficult piece to lay your hands on. Similar also an already published figure on the Uncirculated 2002 Summit with a measely 118 coins struck and another would be the 256 coins in the 2005 Luthuli R1-00 uncirculated coins, all of these at far less mintages than the proof coins.

 

Common sense will tell you that such coins are rare, scarce and will demand a premium when available and even more when graded by a third party grading service.

[MsPlod 11]

Thank you!

 

Fascinating 4Kids!!

 

Thanks for the info - I think I can understand why the mint only releases figures a few years on - there would be a huge run on the circulated pieces to obtain them while they are still new (in those instances where the Proof and Uncirculated coins have a lower mintage than expected or projected). A "run" or 'grab":D such as that would take many circulated coins out of circulation.

 

There are so many aspects to the concept of collecting coins - learning is exponential at the moment - thanks so much for contributing to it!

[barbaro 10]

Thanks for the info 4kids!

[jwither 13]

!!!! ???? That is roughly 2x more than I thought it might cost to grade the coins. My estimate sat at around R185 per coin (if one sent more than 50 coins at a time). This is wild!

 

Thank you Pierre for answering the question - and for raising sooooo many more... :confused:

 

The issues raised (in a different thread) about the potential that RSA coins are being rated lower (or more harshly) than USA coins by NGC and PCGS (possibly to protect their local coin market???) makes one think that the South African coin collectors need to look more carefully at the post by ZARBOY in that same thread (if I remember correctly) at the move to grading coins here in South Africa.

 

This may be a VERY naive comment - but maybe if SACGS is better supported then it has the potential to become an internationally recognised grading firm??? (Please, no cannons, buckshot or hydrogen bombs - I am intrigued and maybe naive and "uninvolved" or "unconnected" enough to ask these questions...) I have no experience of (or with) SACGS.

 

 

The idea that NCG or PCGS would intentionally grade South Africa coins lower to protect their market leadership position in the United States is nonsensical. First of all, grading that is viewed as inaccurate by the market will UNDERMINE their position, not enhance it. And second, their submission volume is dominated by US coins disproportionately and US coin collectors are not even aware what standards are being applied to South African coins at all.

 

As for the prospects for SACGS, its true that local support could enhance their international reputation for SA coins but if this does happen, it will be entirely up to locals to make it happen. As a US based collector of South African coins, I will definitely wait for all of you to blaze the trail for me.