1898 Single 9 Pond Graded by NGC

[mave123 10]

Hi all,

 

Please find attach the link to NGC's webpage about the 1898 Single 9 Pond.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=1589&

 

The coin was graded as MS 63 PL by NGC.

 

Regards

 

Mave123

[geejay50 10]

Excellent news for South Africa,

 

It also puts NGC right on top in terms of reliability of grading that they chose that company ahead of PCGS.

 

Slightly surprising that they overlooked the small M engraved on the bust and did not call it "grafiti".

 

Thanks for letting us know.

 

Geejay

 

 

[4kids 10]

Grading of Single "9" Another Controversy?

 

It is worth mentioning that NGC did make a notation of the engraved "M" on the shoulder of Paul Kruger on the grading slab as " "M' Monogram." They explain that this was done in view of the fact that it is a historical piece with the provenance to prove.

 

Quote: Source Legendary South African Coin Certified by NGC

"NGC's attribution for this coin includes the notation "'M' Monogram." Although the coin was marked post-striking by its first owner, the monogram was not factored into the grade assigned. "This is standard practice when grading coins with historically important post-minting marks," explained Krah. "Marks such as these actually help pedigree a coin. We believe that the Macrum mark on the base of the bust on the single 9 pond clearly falls into this historically significant category."

 

Another interesting fact is that they found this piece to be a Proof Like coin which baffles me somewhat as none of the 1898 or "99" Ponde got the same attribution, yet they all came from the same dies as the Single "9" and "99" over stamped Ponde, with the 9's stamped after the coins were minted. NGC's grading report on the "99" over stamp shows a MS65 and MS66 with two MS63 Coins graded and on the 1898 ponde a whopping 89xMS63's, 36xMS64's, 5xMS65's and 1xMS66.

IS THIS NOT A CLEAR INDICATION OF THE INCONSISTANTCY IN OUR COINS BEING GRADED BY NGC?

[ECONOZONE 10]

Yes I feel that they just do what suites them.If they were sticking to their rules,this coin should not grade but I am glad they did grade it.

[geejay50 10]

Hi Craig and Jan,

 

I agree, The 'M' would in any other coin have been called "Graffiti" but in this case where NGC surely knew they had a lot to gain by grading something so valuable and unique , they chose to give it an explanation that suited them.

 

I had another look at the "M" though and the "9" under higher magnification, the "9" is double struck and perhaps what is called an "M" is actually a scratch that comes from the vigorous stamping process that has had a rebound effect onto the bust close by. It really is not a very convincing "M" and it has a tail extending to the "9". Either way , if not graffiti, then it is a scratch and would not often grade.

 

What do you think?

 

Georg

[Mike Klee 10]

Hi !

 

From what I have read, it appears to be well documented that the first coin for 1899 - which ended up being the single "9" - was produced and earmarked specifically to be given to the American Consul in Pretoria, Mr Macrum. This was done to bolster the ZAR's case for continued credibility as an independent nation and to create mischief between the United States of America and Great Britain.

 

The single "9" ended up as the personal possession of Mr Macrum and the story is often repeated of how Mr Macrum scratched the first letter of his surname onto the coin.

 

Regards NGC grading, the background to the production of this coin together with the documented story of how the "M" appeared on the coin dovetail to spotlight the uniqueness thereof. For NGC not to have graded this coin as it did because of the "M" being considered as graffiti would have reflected blindness to the history behind both the single"9" and the "M"....

 

As in many things in life, exceptional circumstances allow exceptions to the rule for general betterment. In this case , it was to the benefit of South African numismatics.

 

Mike Klee

[4kids 10]

My post specifically question the grade assigned to the Single 9 Piece so lets start again:

 

and I quote myself

 

"Another interesting fact is that they found this piece to be a Proof Like coin which baffles me somewhat as none of the 1898 or "99" Ponde got the same attribution, yet they all came from the same dies as the Single "9" and "99" over stamped Ponde, with the 9's stamped after the coins were minted. NGC's grading report on the "99" over stamp shows a MS65 and MS66 with two MS63 Coins graded and on the 1898 ponde a whopping 89xMS63's, 36xMS64's, 5xMS65's and 1xMS66.

 

IS THIS NOT A CLEAR INDICATION OF THE INCONSISTANTCY IN OUR COINS BEING GRADED BY NGC? "

[luckycoin 10]

Hi Everyone

 

I have read the recent comments on the grading of the Single "9". Should we not appreciate the fact that this coin sold again recently. I think that is great news to the numismatic market, we might see price gains in the numismatic market, meaning more individual's consider that coins should be part of their investment portfolio. What do you think? I dont know, is there any bargains still out there? Whould like to hear from the numismatists

[jwither 10]

That the 'Single 9" gained recognition is a good thing for SA Numismtics specifically and numismatics generally. South African coins are not as widely known and highly regarded versus other coins as they could and should be.

 

In terms of prices, its a matter of perspective on whether rising prices are a positive or not.. Rising prices are not good for the collector. They are bad because that means that it takes more money to buy the same coins.

 

Its only good for those who are liquidating/reducing their collections and for speculators or "investors".

[geejay50 10]

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for your valuable input about the engraving of the 'M', in the case of such an exceptional coin, NGC is probably doing what is in the interests of world numismatics in general. Lets celebrate this great coin.

 

Geejay

[luckycoin 10]

Hi jwither

 

I don't think it is just about the Single"9" gaining recognition. This coin has been known to be the most ultimate coin to own out of the ZAR era for as long as i could remember, this coin always having it's recognition.

Your point taken on the price gains of coins that collectors will have to pay more for the same coin. Today is relative cheap for what the price would be in 10 years time from now, and it will still be cheap in what it would be in 10 years time from then.

 

Please read " The South African Coin And Banknote Catalogue" Date 2002 - 2003. Page 8 second paragraph. " Gone are the days when coin collecting was only a passive hobby for those who would study the history and artistry of these enjoyable objects. It has now grown int an activity where speculation on the future demand for rare coins has made them a part of many investment portfolios"

 

Regards,

 

Luckycoin

[climaxcoin 10]

I think this is great news for South African coin Industry. As to jwither comment "South African coins are not as widely known and highly regarded versus other coins as they could and should be."

Whilst browsing the web, I noticed that the single 9 has made front page on several websites overseas.

[jwither 10]

Hi jwither

 

I don't think it is just about the Single"9" gaining recognition. This coin has been known to be the most ultimate coin to own out of the ZAR era for as long as i could remember, this coin always having it's recognition.

Your point taken on the price gains of coins that collectors will have to pay more for the same coin. Today is relative cheap for what the price would be in 10 years time from now, and it will still be cheap in what it would be in 10 years time from then.

 

Please read " The South African Coin And Banknote Catalogue" Date 2002 - 2003. Page 8 second paragraph. " Gone are the days when coin collecting was only a passive hobby for those who would study the history and artistry of these enjoyable objects. It has now grown int an activity where speculation on the future demand for rare coins has made them a part of many investment portfolios"

 

Regards,

 

Luckycoin

 

I am familiar with what you state, I just disagree with this assessment. I disagree that current prices for most coins, whether South African or otherwise, will look cheap in 10 years because of my outlook for economic conditions. You can read my prior posts on this subject if you are interested. I expect many coin prices to be lower than they are now in 10 years for the simple reason that I do not expect inflation as most people do but deflation.

 

There are two general considerations that could invalidate my expectations, either fully or partially, and I acknowledge them. The first is that metal prices will likely be higher (much higher) in 10 years but I believe will be lower a few years from now versus today (likely much lower for silver). And even then, I expect metals to rise far more than most coins because coins are not an inflation hedge (correlation does not equal casaution) but a luxury to be bought with discretionary income and savings under conditions of prosperity.

 

And second, since almost everyone on this board is from South Africa and measures their return in Rand, the prices of South African coins could be higher or much higher in your currency but increase less or not at all in a hard currency.

 

Most of my collection is still in South African coins but I am not in the market to buy now, not just South Africa material but any coins. Back in 2004 when I started buying most of my South Africa coins, far fewer people wanted them and the prices were much lower. Generally, I could not even find them. Now that they are far more expensive, a lot more people want them. This is not an automatic reason to prevent future price increases, but it is an indication of the sentiment towards them and excessive bullishness in any market is not a pricing positive.

 

I still buy them when I can find them cheaply but I am not paying full value for anything at this time. If or when the coin market becomes a dead zone, then it will be the best time to buy. And if I misss it, I miss it and will just buy into something else.

 

As for the "Single 9", its a "trophy" coin and deservedly so. Its price is impacted by the trends in coins generally but far less so than that for most of them..

[Guest Guest]

Hi John

 

I guess our interest in South African coins is very different. I love to feel the history - to you the investment value is the only factor that matters.

 

I feel your views about silver and gold prices are misplaced and would suggest that followers of this forum check out the "ON THE CUSP" thread for more information.

 

Kind regards

 

 

Scott Balson

[inveco 10]

As for the "Single 9", its a "trophy" coin and deservedly so. Its price is impacted by the trends in coins generally but far less so than that for most of them..

 

Reading up a lot on this great coin,

I THINK THIS COIN GIVES THE MARKET A PRICE AND NOT THE MARKET ITSELF[/u]

[Nickel and Dime 10]

[jwither 10]

Hi John

 

I guess our interest in South African coins is very different. I love to feel the history - to you the investment value is the only factor that matters.

 

I feel your views about silver and gold prices are misplaced and would suggest that followers of this forum check out the "ON THE CUSP" thread for more information.

 

Kind regards

 

 

Scott Balson

 

Scott,

 

You misread my last post to some extent. I am not primarily an "investor" at all. I am firstly a collector but was responding to the financial comments in that last post.

 

On the metals, I am sure you do have a different opinion and I have read most of your commnets there. There is nothing you have included there which is news or new to me and which refutes the position I have laid out either here or on the NGC Message Boards. To the contrary, I have provided better reasons for my position than anyone else here or on the NGC Message boards.

 

I have stated that I am bullish on silver and gold prices longer term but not now like either everyone or practically everyone both here and on the NGC Message Boards. And yes, I have also said that everyone should own SOME metals DESPITE my current opinion on their immediate price prospects.

 

As for South Africa coins, do I like them? Yes, I LIKE THEM A LOT. That is why I started collecting them and have more of them than any other. Does this preference of mine have anything whatsoever to do with my opinion on their financial prospects? No, absolutely not.

 

I happen to think that South Africa coins ARE UNDERVALUED RELATIVE to most other coins. Its just that I am negative on coin prices generally at the current time because of my general economic and financial outlook.

 

From what I see on this forum, the primary difference between myself and most others is that from a preference standpoint, I am agnostic on whether they become more or less valuable. If they go up in value enough, I will proably simply buy slightly lower graded specimens in some instances (such as the 1935 NGC AU-58 2/ I bought for $250 recently) or not buy them at all and buy something else. And if they lose a lot of value as I expect many will, then I will attempt to buy a lot more of them IF they are available.

 

Most or at least many others here seem to be far too concerned with their collections as "investments". That tells me one of two things.

 

First, they are speculators ("investors") and collectors secondly if at all. Now obviously, with about $70,000 USD in my collection, I do not view it as "throw away" money. But I never began collecting and do not pursue it now as a profit center. The fact that I have been able to make money is a SIDE CONSEQUENCE of being knowledgeable about the financial characteristics of the coins I collect.

 

Secondly, its also posisble that many have tied up a significant or substantial amount of their net worth in their collection. I'm far from rich, but if my collection tanks in value before I could sell it, its not going to put me in the poor house. I never put myself in the position of overexposing myself to something which is FIRST and FOREMOST a collectible and secondly an "investment". And this is true even though I do know that coins have, do and will provide profitable opportuntities.