Latest - 1928 6d

[coinoisseur 11]

This is an extract from the NGC website on the 1928 6d............

 

Posted on 4/29/2010

Recently certified by NGC is this recently discovered South Africa 6 Pence dated 1928. It is the only known example bearing this date.

 

 

The coin was first spotted in an English country auction where it was cataloged with an unusual notation: the coin's date was not listed in the standard series reference. It was purchased by a dealer who had a strong suspicion about the its origin. Although he had no doubt about the coin's authenticity, he sent it first to South Africa, where a number of experts examined the coin, all declaring it genuine. The coin itself, as a unique discovery piece, created a sensation among collectors of South African coins, who marveled that this discovery took over 80 years to occur. From South Africa, the coin was sent the coin to the United States to be certified and encapsulated by NGC. The dies for South African coins of this era were manufactured in England and then sent to South Africa for use in coinage production. Mysteriously, six pence dies of this year were not shipped and no pieces dated 1928 were struck in South Africa. Other denominations of coins were produced in that year, however, and it is not certain why the six pence was omitted. Numismatist believe that the coin was produced in England as a specimen piece. It has shallow mirrored fields, a crisp strike, as well as squared rims, similar to all South African presentation coinage of this era. It is also struck on a .925 fine silver planchet, while coins struck for circulation in South Africa are only .800 fine. It has a deep amber patina and is remarkably well preserved, evidence that it resided in the possession of a collector since it was struck.

 

 

Cheers

[ECONOZONE 10]

That is very interesting and a very nice windfall for the dealer.

[Pierre_Henri 27]

Fantastic!

 

I have reported the 1928 Sixpence in November last year on this forum - so now that the stamp of approval has been placed on the coin as authentic (thus not a fake or copy or whatever) the following comments to my posts make for some interesting reading (the actual picture of the coin I posted does not show up anymore, but I must still have it in my archives somewhere)

 

Please click on the following BoB- forum link to my original post of November last year ...

 

http://forum.bidorbuy.co.za/coins-notes-numismatist/6929-unique-south-african-coin-surfaces-london.html

[coinoisseur 11]

Hi Pierre

 

Thanks for posting the link, I searched but could not find the post....

 

Firstly there are a couple of things to note here.

1. This is a great find for South African Numismatics.
   
2. The S.A Mint and two very prominent South African dealers who looked at the coin have confirmed that the coin is definately struck off the original dies. I have seen the appraisal done by both dealers and commented on it.
   
3. Both the S.A Mint and the dealers who examined the coins have confirmed the coin as genuine BUT the coin was minted unoffically as there is no record of a coin being struck by the S.A mint and also due to the fact that NO 1928 6d was minted for circulation. The coin cannot be considered a coin but rather a trial strike or pattern..
   
4. Being an unofficial strike with the genuine dies, this coin is similar to the ZAR 1900 Ponde which was struck from original dies but was done unofficially.
   
5. The coin is therefore a ... pattern... or a trial strike... thats why the grade of the coin by NGC SP63
   
6. One has also got to look at the fineness of the silver used, the coin is .925 whereas all South African coins from that period was struck with .800 silver.
   
7. One can speculate as to where and how this coin was struck, in my opinion, it was struck in England before the dies were sent to South Africa by someone just experimenting or simply just playing around.
   
8. Records show that a 1928 reverse die was made in England and sent out to South Africa. The dies were made in November 1928 and cancelled in January 1929 as unused

So whatever the case may be, who knows what mystery might turn up next.... A 1894 ZAR 5 Shillings.......... Dies do exist for this..........

 

 

Cheers

[Pierre_Henri 27]

Still very valuable...

 

The fact that the coin was not struck officially will make almost no difference to what collectors will be willing to pay for it ...

 

The same happend in the USA 14 years ago when the UNOFFICIALLY STRUCK 1913 Liberty Nickel - one of 5 - was the FIRST coin in the USA that was sold at auction at $1000 000.00...

 

The coin actually sold for US$ 1.485 million including buyers fee. I think it was Jay Parrino from "The Mint" in Cansas City who was the winning bidder.

 

Whatever, this 1928 Sixpence is now a Million Rand coin - I have no idea who owns it, but lucky him as it will take its pride of place alongside the overstamped single "9" Kruger Pond, the MS 1936 Farthing that was reported on this forum a while ago and other unique SA issues (see Hern page 330) .

 

This unique discovery will undoubtfully do SA numismatics a lot of good - so thumbs up all around.

 

Pierre

[coinoisseur 11]

Hi Pierre

 

Hern will definately mention this piece in his next catalogue. It will be listed as an unofficial strike and probably be under the pattern catagory. When looking at the South African coin industry, I would not compare it with the American market as they are two totally different markets. The American market is much much bigger than ours. One has also got to understand that there is a vast difference between a pattern/trail strike coin to a coin. The 1928 6d, the Single 9, the coins mentioned on Hern page 330 are all patterns. These were never intended for circulation. The 1936 1/4d on the other hand, is a coin as this was struck for circulation. We have some other unique coins in the South African series namely, the 1925 Proof 3d, the 1925 Proof 6d, the 1928 Proof 1 Sov, 1902 Blank Veld Pond etc..

 

When one looks at patterns, there are many unique pieces as well. Numerous pieces have a description of only 1 known making them unique. Have a look at Griqua Town patterns.

 

Patterns or trail strikes are meant to have a mintage of 1 to 5 or 10 coins.

 

I agree, the find of this piece is a breakthrough for South African numismatics because if after 82 years a piece like this can surface, then who knows what other unrecorded pieces are out there. Maybe, just maybe, the Veldpond dies will surface and what a find that will be...........

 

 

Cheers

[Pierre_Henri 27]

My Sixpence Worth ....

 

Hi Pierre

 

When looking at the South African coin industry, I would not compare it with the American market as they are two totally different markets. The American market is much much bigger than ours.

 

Yes, I obviously understand that - I equaled US$1 = ZA R1. That should make up for the two different markets.

 

One has also got to understand that there is a vast difference between a pattern/trail strike coin to a coin. The 1928 6d, the Single 9, the coins mentioned on Hern page 330 are all patterns. These were never intended for circulation.

 

That does not make a real difference in the price - the US 1913 nickel I used as an example showed that many times over. At this level of collecting, as long as it is not a fake or bogus issue - the market just don't care - the milionare collectors will pay up.

 

The 1936 1/4d on the other hand, is a coin as this was struck for circulation.

 

Yes, but i dont think it will prizewise outstrip the 1928 Sixpence that should sell for around a cool million plus. (Unique is unique and the market realize this very quickly)

 

Whatever - at least they are on even par in terms of scarcity.

 

We have some other unique coins in the South African series namely, the 1925 Proof 3d, the 1925 Proof 6d, the 1928 Proof 1 Sov, 1902 Blank Veld Pond etc..

 

I hope to see one of them on sale one day in the future - I wonder what the 1902 Blank Veld Pond will go for?

 

By the way Anthony, I am not a ZAR collector ( I prefer Union of South Africa) but I must say that the Sammy Marks Tickey you are offering at R750 000 is really a good buy. (MS-62 if I remember correctly)

 

On the 3rd of June 2008, "Die Burger" reported the sale of one (ungraded I think) for R1.4 million

 

I have always stated on this forum that, in times of economical hardship, if in anyway possible, one must reach deep into your pocket for those truly elusive coins, because when the upswing comes, it will be too late and the really rich will haved coin(ed) it as they have done for too many years.

 

Pierre

[jwither 11]

It will take a long time, if ever, for the 1928 6P to reach par with the "Single 9". The "Single" has the benefit of "celebrity" status which the 1928 does not.

 

The 1928 might end up with a "book" valud of R1MM but it has the added obstacle that no Union coin (to my knowledge) has ever sold for anywhere near that amount. The highest prices for a public sale known to me are about $23,000 USD for both the 1923 NGC MS-66 Sovereign in the Millenium Sale and the 1926 proof red 1/4D sold by Randburg Coin.

 

There may have been private sales for more than these amounts, but I consider them unreliable indicators of market value.

 

One other thing I would add is that though prices may rise from here, this is absolutely not a time to "bargain hunt". Prices for SA coins generally have been rising for a decade or even more. If my outlook turns out to be remotely correct, I expect that there will be many bargains a few years from now (for most coins everywhere) after the deflationary contraction has mostly run its course, but this will be at much lower prices (at least in a hard currency) than what exists today.

[Pierre_Henri 27]

The PROOF is in the Pudding ...

 

The 1928 might end up with a "book" valud of R1MM but it has the added obstacle that no Union coin (to my knowledge) has ever sold for anywhere near that amount. The highest prices for a public sale known to me are about $23,000 USD for both the 1923 NGC MS-66 Sovereign in the Millenium Sale and the 1926 proof red 1/4D sold by Randburg Coin.

 

The examples you give are not near unique with more than 60 of the 1923 MS Sovereigns and more than a dozen of the 1926 farthings minted.

 

Anthony mentions a few unique SA Union coins in his reply above being the Proof 1928 Sovereign, the 1925 Proof 3d and 1925 Proof 6d. Hern attaches a catalogue value of R350 000 to the latter two each and three quarters of a million to the former. This is seven times more than the value he puts on the 1923 MS Sovereign.

 

I fully understand that the proof is in the puddung but the problem is there is no pudding as NO unique Union coin has been sold recently of which the price was made public. So we just do not know.

 

Your two examples sold for just under R200 000 so my estimate is that a unique coin, proparly marketed, should make at least 3 to 5 times that?

[Guest Guest]

I guess what we are all saying is that the price of this coin would be determined by supply and demand. In this case, how deep the pockets are of those wanting to acquire it.

 

The US numismatic market is huge in comparison to the ZAR market and the pockets there are very deep.

 

That's the only simple equation that matters.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

[jwither 11]

The examples you give are not near unique with more than 60 of the 1923 MS Sovereigns and more than a dozen of the 1926 farthings minted.

 

Anthony mentions a few unique SA Union coins in his reply above being the Proof 1928 Sovereign, the 1925 Proof 3d and 1925 Proof 6d. Hern attaches a catalogue value of R350 000 to the latter two each and three quarters of a million to the former. This is seven times more than the value he puts on the 1923 MS Sovereign.

 

I fully understand that the proof is in the puddung but the problem is there is no pudding as NO unique Union coin has been sold recently of which the price was made public. So we just do not know.

 

Your two examples sold for just under R200 000 so my estimate is that a unique coin, proparly marketed, should make at least 3 to 5 times that?

 

Hern can assign whatever price he wants in his book. I would say that the catalogue is useful in assessing RELATIVE prices but not actual ones. Contrary to what most people believe, most are irrelevant because except for the more available issues, either few or ZERO sales have actually occured at most of those prices. He might as well pull a number out of a hat and print it.

 

On the specific coins you cite such as the 1928 proof sovereign and those two 1925 proofs, we do not know what they would sell for. They might sell for more than his catalog price or they might sell for less.

 

The only point I was trying to make is that there is no evidence that any Union coin will sell for that type of price (R1MM) now, given what we know.

 

I have read many comments from many different people (both here and in private) who collect South African coins assigning all types of prices to one coin or another. And in the examples I have in mind, all of these theoretical prices are far higher than either what that coin has ever sold for or what scarce and rare South Africa coins sell for generally. In almost all cases, the coin under discussion has no record of a sale, not sold recently or not sold recently in a public sale.

 

Personally, I do not believe that any Union coin would sell for R1MM at least at public auction right now. And it is not because I do not think many of these coins are not equal to other comporable coins from elsewhere that sell for those prices, such as in the United States where I live.

 

The only reason I could see the 1928 6P sell for that price is because someone or collectors generally consider it necessary for a complete Union business strike set. That happens with US coins occasionally where a pattern is included in the "Red Book" price guide and many collectors use that as their definition of a complete collection.

 

But if bought as a trial strike or pattern, the chance of that price is much lower. Though it would have the advantage of recent publicity and being the only 1928 (most I believe are 1931 or 1934), it would simply be one of what, 200 Union pattern issues? Each of those only have a handful and I'm not aware of any of the silver which are prominent enough to sell for remotely that kind of money. (The 1952 pound are the only ones that might be so.) The only sales I recall of these were for two 1934 shillings a few years ago. These were PCGS coins yet both as a group sold for I believe 6,000 GBP in a Baldwin's or similar sale.

[coinoisseur 11]

Coin is Described Incorrectly

 

Hi

 

I have chatted to Hern on Friday regarding this and he had this to say. Hern examined the coin personally and did the analysis. His findings are and were compared to a 1925 6d and a 1927 6d.

 

Measurements

 

 

The coin examined is EF to AU and is definately not Proof. The coin is certainly not a Trail Strike, nor a Specimen or a Pattern. The coin should be classed as a "Test Strike" done in England prior to the dies being sent over to South Africa. It is also an "Unofficially" struck coin, struck on the incorrect blank.

 

Regarding price, whatever a willing buyer is prepared to pay for the piece. If he thinks it worth a million, then let him pay a million. If he wants to pay two million, then let him pay two million. Lets hope he can then find a willing buyer when he does decide to sell coin again.

 

Remember the coin was also sent to the S.A Mint for evaluation and they have also stated it is an unofficial coin as they have no record of any coin being struck for 1928.

 

NGC have graded the coin as a Specimen Proof SP63. This is totally incorrect. The coin is Not a Specimen and it is certainly not proof.

 

 

Cheers

[ALJADA 10]

Hi Anthony,

 

Interesting stuff I must say and it is a damn nice coin. I just have one point to make regarding the dies for South African coins which is still being perpetuated incorrectly and which has a bearing on the coin discussed in this thread. The dies for South African coins were NOT ALL sent to South Africa from the Royal Mint London. It is a fallacy that must be forgotten and the following details the saga regarding some of the dies for the SA GEOV series of coins:

 

Please note that the half sovereign and sovereign are not included here. The denominations spoken of are the 1/4p, 1/2p, Penny, 3p, 6p, Shilling, Florin & Half Crown.

 

1923 - matrix dies undated sent from the Royal Mint London for all denominations plus 12 obverse production dies and 12 reverse production dies were sent to start production immediately upon receipt of shipment.

 

1924 - production dies were sunk here in South Africa in Pretoria at the SA Mint for all denominations utilising the matrix dies received in 1923 and punches were used to insert the correct date into the production dies.

 

1925 - new matrix dies sent to SA from the Royal Mint London for all denominations excepting the Florin. Some matrices were delayed into 1926 whilst others arrived late 1925. No farthings were struck in 1925, half penny dies were sunk here using the matrix sent in 1923 as the new matrix would only arrive late 1926 & would not be required until 1928, no pennies were struck in 1925. The 3p wreath production dies were sunk using the matrix received in 1923 until the matrices with the protea arrived. The 6P matrix arrived in time for production dies to be made with the new protea design. No 1925 shillings were struck. The 1925 florin dies were sunk utilising the matrix sent in 1923. The 1925 half crown matrix only arrived in 1926 and so the old matrix received in 1923 was used to produce 1925 half crown production dies.

 

1926 - no farthings struck except for proofs and the dies were made from the new matrix received in 1925. The new half penny matrix only arrived late 1926 so the old matrix received in 1923 was used to make 1926 half penny production dies. The new matrices received in 1925 were used to make 1926 penny, 3p, 6p, shilling & half crown production dies whilst the matrix received in 1923 was used to make the florin.

 

1927 - no farthings or half pennies struck. The penny, 3p, 6p, shilling and half crown production dies for this year were made using the matrices received in 1925/1926 and the florin production dies were made using the matrix received in 1923.

 

1928 - the 1/4p, 1/2p, penny, 3p, shilling and half crown production dies were all made using the matrices received in 1925/1926 and the florin production dies were made using the matrix received in 1923. No 6p were struck in 1928 and whilst it may be puzzling to some it is simple economics because in 1927 1,547,788 6p were minted and clearly the banks did not need any 6p in the subsequent year.

 

As you can see up to this point the only dies that were sent here by the Royal Mint and which were ready to produce coins upon arrival were the 1923 dies. All the production dies in subsequent years were made here and not at the Royal Mint. This is important because the origin of the varieties that exist within the entire series would be confused and in numismatics there is should be no confusion in this respect.

 

I shall stop here because it is in this year that the coin discussed in this thread was supposedly minted as a trial coin or a pattern or call it what you want coin in the United Kingdom at the Royal Mint in London. I say hogwash. I say this because there was no die ever made for a 6p coin for South Africa dated 1928 at the Royal Mint in London, not a master, matrix, hubbing or production die. Proof of this can be seen from the above explanation where it is clear that the reverse matrix die for this particular design resided in South Africa since 1925 and since matrix dies are one of a kind how did they make a 1928 6p coin almost three years later in London from a die which resided in South Africa? Impossible but what is possible is that someone who had the power and/or time and/or ability to do so, minted the coin here at the mint in Pretoria using the single reverse production die that was officially recorded in the die register of 1928 and made using the matrix received in 1925 and which was subsequently destroyed at the end of the year with no official coins being minted? If so then it is plausible to state that such coin was possibly minted using a zar coin as a planchet which would explain the fineness being sterling or .925? Looking at the rim and edge of the coin in the pictures it is quite evident to me that this coin must have been struck many times or without a collar perhaps to press out the zar old detail, which would explain the wider diameter? It follows then that there could be more such coins and that this coin although struck using the correct dies is a fraud which found its way over to the UK and surfaced now because enough time has passed to allow for doubt and conjecture about its origins? The coin is a 'REAL FAKE'!! Excellent stuff whoever it was?

 

Cheers

Alex

[coinoisseur 11]

Hi Alex

 

Wonderful explaination, thanks for clearing up the Die Issue. It would then make sense that the coin was struck off a ZAR planchet and struck here in South Africa, which explains the .925% fineness.

 

So here is a question to you, NGC describes the coin as SP63.... What do you say would be the correct description...

 

 

 

Thanks once again...

 

 

 

Cheers

[ALJADA 10]

Hi Anthony,

 

Thank you for your kind words.

 

My best description, in my humble opinion, should be a body bag because in my opinion the coin was clandestinely struck which makes it an illegal item and therefore it should be no graded but since this will never happen I would say it should be assigned as a MINT ERROR.

 

Cheers

Alex

[HR_COINS 10]

This coin is also mentioned on the NGC website news.

 

From the NGC Grading Room: Unique 1928 South Africa 6P

[ALJADA 10]

Yes thank you HR. It is in this article that one will see how little the NGC knows about our coins in so far as the dies that struck them.

[jwither 11]

Hi Anthony,

 

Thank you for your kind words.

 

My best description, in my humble opinion, should be a body bag because in my opinion the coin was clandestinely struck which makes it an illegal item and therefore it should be no graded but since this will never happen I would say it should be assigned as a MINT ERROR.

 

Cheers

Alex

 

I would be interested to know exactly how NGC attributed this coin. The article on the NGC website simply says it was verified by numerous South Africa numismatic experts.

 

I myself bought an unattributed set at the Cayon auction in December 2008. The 1952 silver plated 14/d, 1/2d and 1d. I sent them to NGC and they were returned as "artificially colored". When I spoke with a grader, they told me that unless I could provide proof that the plating was added before they left the mint, they would not grade them. Of course, I could provide no such proof and Cayon refunded my money.

 

By the way, NGC just graded the 1898 "Single 9" Pond MS-63 PL. I just saw the article on the NGC home page.

[ECONOZONE 10]

They are like this ANC just do what suites them.They will grade some then not others,like the single 9.Should this coin grade?

[coinoisseur 11]

For the sake of South African Numismatics, having the Single 9 graded is a good thing but when one looks at what NGC's policy is on NO-GRADE coins, then I have to agree with you, they do what they please when it suites them.

 

We have many important and historical coins in South Africa that should fall in the same catagory but are not graded.

 

 

 

Cheers

[lewisclark79 10]

hi im new to the site , i came across the site by searching google looking up my old coins i have , now i have a 1928 georgivs sixpence ,,is this rare or is it just the south african ones ? any info much appreciated , thanks.

[Guest Guest]

Hern is no expert.. why do we consider him one?

 

Anthony says...

 

I have chatted to Hern on Friday regarding this and he had this to say. Hern examined the coin personally and did the analysis. His findings are and were compared to a 1925 6d and a 1927 6d.

 

Aljada replies...

 

My best description, in my humble opinion, should be a body bag because in my opinion the coin was clandestinely struck which makes it an illegal item and therefore it should be no graded but since this will never happen I would say it should be assigned as a MINT ERROR.

 

Only question in my mind... get an expert who RESEARCHES before PUBLISHING and in my humble view the man printing out annual catalogues on South African coins is NOT an expert.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

[Cold Sea 3]

Anthony says...

 

 

 

Aljada replies...

 

 

 

Only question in my mind... get an expert who RESEARCHES before PUBLISHING and in my humble view the man printing out annual catalogues on South African coins is NOT an expert.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

 

Kind Regards !!!?

Edited February 4, 2013 by Cold Sea