help in clearing up a grading issue

[eZethu Coins 10]

I recently received an NGC graded coin and was surprised at the coin vs the grade. I don't want to say at this stage what the grade is, but I have verified the coin on NGC's site and even saw the picture stored there.

 

I know there are a lot of experts out there - what class grade do you think belong to this coin - nothing specific required - a plain VF, XF, AU, MS or PF will do.

 

...and I know that the picture is not the best quality, but hope that it will show enough detail.

 

See the attachment.(ADDED THE 2ND ATTACHMENT)

[Guest Guest]

Hi

It is difficult to detimine a grade as the obverse are not present.

The obverse accounts up to 60% of the grade.

 

Regards SCGS SUPPORT

[eZethu Coins 10]

Hi

It is difficult to detimine a grade as the obverse are not present.

The obverse accounts up to 60% of the grade.

 

Regards SCGS SUPPORT

 

Uploaded now

[Guest Guest]

1) the coin should not have graded. RN 6 o clock OBV

 

2) on details of the coin:

The grade would have been XF-AU

 

very little wear on the coin itself couple of nicks, but your picture are quite enlarged.

 

places to look for wear..

 

the buck, eyes & head, the dome above the door's lintels

 

The left tower is also dubblestruck or a die break

But nice detail, obv lion also about complete

 

My bet would be XF45 - AU-50 (AU 1st choice)

 

Note: Only 30-40% of Inauguration coins grade.. DONT waste your money in sending then for grading.

Rim nicks like above the major cause of rejection.

 

Regards SACGS SUPPORT

 

NOTE the picture is quite enlarge, so it show minor detail as severe.

[coinoisseur 11]

By NGC grading standards it would be XF45, by South African grading standards, it should be a good VF/VF+.

Obverse VF and Reverse VF+.

 

If it was my coin, I would spend it

 

 

 

 

Cheers

[BumbleBee 10]

I'm no expert, but my best guess would be AU, low 50's

[Guest Guest]

Without seeing the original coin under magnification I would never even suggest a grading.

 

I was recently caught on BoB with a coin which had been polished beyond belief and should have been noted as such in the listing - but wasn't.

 

The detailed scan of the coin in the BoB listing never reflected that important blemish.

 

It all comes back to the integrity of the seller buyers are dealing with. If you can trust the seller then all is good. If you can't beware. For me, once bitten, twice shy.

 

Kind regards

 

 

Scott Balson

[Bellcoin 10]

Grading: I wanted to write my thoughts for awhile on this sticky subject and have decided now is the time - what the heck!

 

My thoughts and my opinions - I could very well be wrong but my thoughts anyway.

 

There seems to be very distinct types of grading,market related,technical,historical grading. Market grading does seem to be the most popular of the two. Take for example ZAR coins - I think seem to be more market graded than technical. My reasoning being: NGC and PCGS and other grading companies do not seem to take into account certain oddities related to ZAR coins, example weak strikes, overused dies etc etc. How many of us actually now why a series of coins is weakly struck - to maximize the life of the dies/or dies are poked. When grading historically correctly a weakly stuck coin can be UNC even though it has no luster and poor details. For example 1896 shillings - a dime a dozen but find a good one graded - you will not. Weak used dies. . NGC and PCGS apply this to certain US series coins which are weakly struck, and grade them accordingly, unfortunately this will never be applied to SA coins. $20 CC gold coin.

 

Consensus grading I understand is used by the NGC (cannot comment on PCGS because I dont know) can be pretty poor - 1898 pennys for example. I have an MS62 and MS64 - there is no way on planet earth the 64 is better. It seems very common is the States to take it out the slab and send it back and get a higher grad.FACT - I have done it. Insofar is that "cleaned" coins come back graded. I have read many stories regarding reslabbing - scary reading.

 

I am dead certain certain grades will never be exceeded in ZAR and Union due to market grading even though these coins exist.

 

I do understand that coin grading is subjective BUT should historical issues not be taken into account when grading? That is my question?

 

Good one I picked up on the net: THERE ARE ONLY TWO GRADES,NEW AND USED, THE SHELDON SCALE IS THERE TO MAKE US FEEL BETTER THAN USED CAR DEALERS.

 

And: If the coin looks bad in the slab it is.

Cheers.

[Guest Guest]

Grading: I wanted to write my thoughts for awhile on this sticky subject and have decided now is the time - what the heck!

 

My thoughts and my opinions - I could very well be wrong but my thoughts anyway.

 

There seems to be very distinct types of grading,market related,technical,historical grading. Market grading does seem to be the most popular of the two. Take for example ZAR coins - I think seem to be more market graded than technical. My reasoning being: NGC and PCGS and other grading companies do not seem to take into account certain oddities related to ZAR coins, example weak strikes, overused dies etc etc. How many of us actually now why a series of coins is weakly struck - to maximize the life of the dies/or dies are poked. When grading historically correctly a weakly stuck coin can be UNC even though it has no luster and poor details. For example 1896 shillings - a dime a dozen but find a good one graded - you will not.

 

I am dead certain certain grades will never be exceeded in ZAR and Union due to market grading even though these coins exist.

 

I do understand that coin grading is subjective BUT should historical issues not be taken into account when grading? That is my question?

 

Good one I picked up on the net: THERE ARE ONLY TWO GRADES,NEW AND USED, THE SHELDON SCALE IS THERE TO MAKE US FEEL BETTER THAN USED CAR DEALERS.

 

Cheers.

 

Hi

We do take historical facts into account when grading.

Very much so.

 

Shocking fact also that 30% of graded ZAR CROWNS are re strikes or counterfeit,

good ones, but still..

Same size, different weight, and reeding, and a mark just before oom Paul's ear.

 

regards SACGS SUPPORT

 

** Note: the Inauguration coin above would not have graded with us as stated.

But the A/U designation is leniency as for NGC what would have been to be expected.

[BumbleBee 10]

I can't wait for the bunny to be pulled from the hat

[ECONOZONE 10]

So what did they grade it?

[eZethu Coins 10]

So what did they grade it?

 

OK - so here goes - the coin graded as MS62. I am not an expert (which I have stated many times), but I would have thought XF or no-grade. I don't think the marks on the coin are bag marks and it has a definite rim nick. The marks are visible with the naked eye.

 

So we live and learn.

 

I really appreciate all the opinions and advice received (also via PMs). Any one that wants to buy it from me - now is your opportunity

[BumbleBee 10]

OK - so here goes - the coin graded as MS62. I am not an expert (which I have stated many times), but I would have thought XF or no-grade. I don't think the marks on the coin are bag marks and it has a definite rim nick. The marks are visible with the naked eye.

 

So we live and learn.

 

I really appreciate all the opinions and advice received (also via PMs). Any one that wants to buy it from me - now is your opportunity

 

I will give you R5 for it

[eZethu Coins 10]

You know how it works - if I get no higher bids, she is yours. BTW - did I mention my new shipping costs?

[ZARGold 10]

What a BIG MISTAKE NGC !!! LOL !!!

I have allways been of the opinion that PCGS is a better grading company than NGC (although they have had their share of slipups).I think they are more strick with their grading in general.

Now back to our local company,SA Coin Grading.I did a small experiment by comparing 10 x Mandela 90th Birthday coins graded by NGC as MS67 and 10x graded by SACGS also MS67.Even with the naked eye I can see contact marks in the fields of the NGC coins.The SACGS coins in my opinion were worthy of their MS67 grades and totally in a different class!

Now I ask myself...are our local collectors being critical of SACGS because they know their grading standards is more strick and thorough than NGC ? !!

Keep up the good work SA Coin Grading Services !!!

Again,anybody can make a mistake.But something like this NO GRADE should have not slipped through( as MS62 !!)...and I am not even going into NGC grading coins that have been dipped(same as cleaning to me).

[ECONOZONE 10]

That as Ms is A very very bad mistake by NGC.

[4kids 10]

Hi Guys.

 

Fascinating stuff.

 

Here I present the same coin as imaged by NGC next to the images by Renaldo. Just goes to show that the same coin can look very different from one photographer to another.

 

Pic 1

 

Pic 2

 

The same person that graded this coin also graded a few hundred of the same at the same time. What a waste of money... Buyers beware of sellers that floods the market with these coins especially where generic pics are used. Buy the coin and not the grade on the slab.

 

Renaldo, I will ask for a full refund If I was in your shoes.

[eZethu Coins 10]

Hi Guys.

 

Fascinating stuff.

 

Here I present the same coin as imaged by NGC next to the images by Renaldo. Just goes to show that the same coin can look very different from one photographer to another.

 

Pic 1

 

Pic 2

 

The same person that graded this coin also graded a few hundred of the same at the same time. What a waste of money... Buyers beware of sellers that floods the market with these coins especially where generic pics are used. Buy the coin and not the grade on the slab.

 

Renaldo, I will ask for a full refund If I was in your shoes.

 

My mistake - I bought a grade. So - out of principle I will not ask for a refund, but I have learned two valueable lessons:

 

1. A grade is not always a grade (i.e. MS62 is not always equal to MS62)

2. therefor, never buy from generic pictures.

[coinoisseur 11]

This proves a point that I have always been trying to make, third party grading companies may have experience in grading American coins, but when it comes to foreign coins and especially South African, I do not believe they have all the experience. Some of the faults I have found

 

• Fake coins graded as Genuine (Veld Pond MS62 sold by Goldberg Auctions)
  
• Proof coins graded as Mint State
  
• Mint State coins graded as Proof
  
• Prooflike Like Coins graded as Proof
  
• VF coins graded as AU
  
• Mint State coins graded as AU
  
• No consistancy in grading, ie.. certain coins with scratches graded and others not
  
• Brilliant UNC pennies not graded, Reason - Excessive Surface Hairlines

I have more reasons

 

In this day and age, no one actually cares about what is inside the slab, the thing that everyone is interested in is, whats written on the slab. In other words, many people are buying the slab and not the coin.

 

 

Cheers.........

[eZethu Coins 10]

 

In this day and age, no one actually cares about what is inside the slab, the thing that everyone is interested in is, whats written on the slab. In other words, many people are buying the slab and not the coin.

 

 

Cheers.........

 

It was only because I did not know that I had to "ignore" the grade. I must say, my experience up until now has been that I can buy the grade and the coin would automatically match - this was my first bad experience - and I have learned.

 

They say learn from mistakes - preferably someone else's mistakes - sharing this with rest on the forum was not to have a bitching session, but to share my experience and to aid in my own learning experience and maybe someone else's.

[coinoisseur 11]

They say learn from mistakes - preferably someone else's mistakes - sharing this with rest on the forum was not to have a bitching session, but to share my experience and to aid in my own learning experience and maybe someone else's.

 

Hi eZethu Coins

 

I do not believe that you have started a bitching session, infact your posting is one of the more relevant ones that has been posted on the inconsistancy of third party grading. I know of a lot of frustrated people with incorrectly graded coins.

 

A lot of people have experienced similar fates as you including myself and you have rightly and correctly stated, we have learned from our mistakes and will not make the same ones again

 

I will try and upload some pictures of coins with similar problems

 

 

Cheers.....

[Guest Guest]

I never have my coins graded. I like to hold them and admire them without encapsulation that way I can enjoy them and be part of their history without a plastic container, which rather like a condom, restricts my pleasure!

 

Obviously I store and handle my coins very carefully but, personally, I think this obsession with slabbing and grading every coin in the collection has gone somewhat overboard.

 

Unfortunately scans and photos of coins listed on BoB can be "manipulated" to disguise or hide otherwise obvious impairments; this is the reason many buyers pay higher prices for slabbed coins. And not even that yardstick is reliable. Which comes back to the key factor for buyers when dealing with a seller on BoB - look at their track record or reputation amongst the numismatic community. It doesn't take long to see which sellers have an excellent track record over many years and obviously they will do anything to protect that track record. That, to me, is a far more important measuring stick than a slab around a coin. In need ask questions about an item before bidding.

 

In many ways the experiences related on this thread reflects the evolution of my personal philosophy to collecting. To me a proof coin is not as valuable as a high graded UNC because the high graded UNC has actually been out there and part of history whereas a PROOF is just that. Historically boring.

 

My philosophy to collecting is embodied by the history of a coin or numismatic piece. I hate sanitised pieces which have been moddy-coddled and excluded from the real richness of the history behind their "lesser" pieces which might not grade so highly.

 

Some examples:

- I find a Mafeking siege note far more exciting to look at and hold than a PROOF 1931 tickey;

- I find many token coins and their unique and fascinating history a very important but underrated part of numismatics - the more comprehensive the historical background the more valuable the piece.

- I believe that the Veldpond is, without doubt, the most prized South African coin. It is historically significant, was cast under extraordinary circumstances, is gold and is extremely rare. To me a XF Veldpond has as much historic and numismatic value as an UNC piece because of this journey. The single 9 overstamp leaves me cold.

 

While grading is obviously a factor in my overall collecting philosophy I have no obsession about getting the highest graded coin in a series and never pay top dollar because a sanitised slabbed and graded piece might fit into this "perfect mould". (Perhaps I should call slabbing "the condom effect")

 

I like my coins to "be dirty", to reflect the richness of our history and to be in their raw state - just as they once came into this world.

 

I do have a handful of slabbed coins in my collection - all bought. I have never had a coin or bank note graded - I see no need to.

 

Kind regards

 

Scott Balson

[Bellcoin 10]

I think this post could develop in a seriously interesting post.

 

I agree that many, including myself, purchase graded coins and yes I have bought graded coins that quite honestly suck. And yes I have fallen into the TRAP of buying the slab and not the coin. There are some first class coins available ungraded, the problem is that they do not fetch a price that justifies the condition.

 

One is therefore forced into grading coins to make a reasonable return. A circle!

 

Another comment- opinion - a proof is a proof is a proof no matter what the grade. I cannot see the justification in paying a premium for a graded proof. Proof coins are made for collectors and are not for circulation. If a PF68 is for sale at say 1K why pay 3k for a PF70, still both proof and we know grading is subjective so how many PF70's are PF whatevers.

 

Buying a graded proof is a waste - just buy the proof coin and keep it that way.

[alloway65 10]

One of the reasons I buy Graded Coins and have Coins Graded, is that when I pass on......my better coins will be left to my Children but more likely my Grandchildren and on that basis they will know what the coins are and basically they cannot easily be damaged by mishandling etc.

Also if they want to sell the coins sometime in the future they would be easier to market/sell say on BoB without any expertise.

I prefer to keep my Grading costs to a minimum and by Grading locally the cost per coin is in the region of R100.00 (good value) whereas going the American route the cost would be upward of R500.00 per coin....plus all the shipping and customs hassles.

[Bellcoin 10]

Agreed completely. It is easier and the least one can do is give it a try!

Canadain coins graded by a Canadian Grading Company sell for more than NGC and PCGS graded Canadian coins!

 

Makes you think does it not!

 

SACGS can succeed if it receives support and of course will take time to gain respect.

 

Honestly have you seen some of the "international" grading companies - PCS is a newish one,seems they bought some slabs printed some labels and presto - graded coins. I have heard from the states that the coins are s***, ms graded but vf if you are lucky!