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Uncirculated Protea rand series
GROOVIE MOVIES posted a topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
Good day The early 90's saw equal mintages on uncirculated proteas in comparison to proofs, and only saw a decline in unc mintages from 97 onwards (I'm assuming due to decline in demand). From then onwards we saw higher mintages on proof coins even though those numbers were also much lower to the Protea series hey day. So why aren't uncirculated protea rands from the early 90's traded as regularly as their proof counter parts? You hardly ever see them listed on bob and if you do, they the same coins that have always been listed. With proofs you see new listings quite regularly. Have all these unc proteas been lost to melting? And if they were melted, surely it would have been at a loss. Today uncirculated protea are sold for less than their proof counter parts but still sold at a premium above melt value. Were uncirculated coins not sold at premium over melt value back in the 90's as well? regards Robert -
courier company to avoid
All Music replied to millefleur's topic in Shipping, Post Office and Courier Issues
I would use "ask the seller a question" to find out which courier company they use. -
After 3 very painful experiences with DSV Distribution (NOT the Sellers' faults in any way, purely an issue with an incompetent company) I would prefer to avoid buying from people who use them as their courier service. Is there any way to see which courier co is used when bidding or buying?
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millefleur joined the community
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KekQak5777 joined the community
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Adrian Jordi from South Africa! What a wonderful achievement and a great day for South African Numismatics. Well done Adrian! -
1874 Burgers Half crown pattern
Mike Klee replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
ZAR coins for circulation had to be modelled after existing British coins as commerce with the neighbouring British colonies of The Cape of Good Hope and Natal was really, really important. "Equivalency" of circulating coins in this southern African region was paramount for trade. I also seem to remember that the mintage of South Africa's first gold coin - the burgerspond by the ZAR in 1874 - almost brought down the ZAR Government as the fear was that the British authorities would not take kindly to the ZAR taking such a step to assert its place as a sovereign nation..... - Last week
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1874 Burgers Half crown pattern
jwither replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
The 1874's, maybe. I haven't read anywhere that the others were prototypes for anything. My recollection is that the later penny were salesmen tokens. -
Counterfeit/plated coins
Cold Sea replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
Apologies Pierre, I've only noticed my mistake now. 1900 not 1890. -
I would assume any denomination below our lowest currently (10cent) would be rounded up to 10 cents.
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Counterfeit/plated coins
Cold Sea replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
Hi Pierre, Robert's troops occupied Pretoria during the Second Boer War on 5 June 1900, ending with the treaty of Vereeniging on 31 May, 1902. The proclamation forms part of The Statutory Proclamations of the Transvaal, 1900 - 1902. -
1874 Burgers Half crown pattern
GROOVIE MOVIES replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
I see some patterns on the ZAR ponde were gold and others were gold plated silver. Many other patterns I see were struck in nickel as well. But I suppose if you newly establishing your own coinage as ZAR was doing in the 1890s, then you want to look and feel how the actual coin will look in silver and gold, even though your coins were modelled after existing british coins in circulation. -
BitCoin price - What has happend recently ?
Pierre_Henri replied to Pierre_Henri's topic in Business Opportunities
Now here is a fake for you - advertised as 18 carat gold - but a totally worthless bitcoin .... https://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/393722712/BITCOIN_Coin_18K_GOLD_BITCOIN_Coin_2_pack_Deluxe_Collectors_Set_Featuring_the_Limited_Edition_O.html -
Counterfeit/plated coins
Pierre_Henri replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
Hi Derick If Lord Roberts signed the 1890 Proclamation it must have been 10 years later as his troops only entered Pretoria a decade later when he took control of the ZAR. I am not even sure what that proclamation was. What is the heading of the proclamation? If I remember correctly, ZAR and English coins circulated in the Union South Africa until the early 1930s. There was a gap of 10 years however - the ZAR coins were only declared legal from 1910 or 1911 onward when we became a Union - before that, they were not legally recognized in Natal and the Cape Province. They obviously did not circulate much outside the Transvaal after the Boer War, but I indeed metal detected a 1896 Tickey on Blueberg Strand (Cape Province) a couple of years ago. Regards -
Counterfeit/plated coins
Cold Sea replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
The following is copied from the Reserve Bank site. You can see that ZAR and British coins are no longer legal tender. I am not sure what exactly this means. "The history of minting coins in South Africa goes back to the period when South Africa comprised four separate regions that later became provinces of the Union of South Africa. A government mint was established in Pretoria in 1890 and commenced with the domestic production of coin in 1892. After unification of South Africa in 1910 the country used British coin, as well as coin of the Zuid-Afrikaansche Republic. The latter remained legal tender until 1938, while British coin remained legal tender until 1961. Coining operations in Pretoria evolved into the South African Mint, which was established in 1923, and functioned as a division of the central government." -
Hi Pierre, here is the list.
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Thanks, I did not know that.
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I wonder what the SARB (SA Reserve Bank) will pay one for an old South African Farthing (Quarter Penny) in exchange today? It is nonsensical for us today but are they obliged to do it? Must the SARB do the exchange when presented with say a 1960 Farthing? Is it legally bounded on them? What amount will they have to pay one if indeed they are legally bounded to do the exchange - - let us say for a South African Farthing of 1960 in this example?
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SibZac4548 joined the community
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Hi jwither, so is Union coinage, but you can still exchange it at SARB for current circulating coinage and notes.
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Counterfeit/plated coins
Cold Sea replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
Hi Pierre, The treaty between the Free State and the Transvaal signed in 1872 between Burgers and Brand mentions extradition for certain offences between the two Republics, of which false coining, defacing coins and "uttering" false coins formed part of the list. The 1890 Proclamation was signed by Lord Roberts, so there seems to be a common thread about defacement and/or altering coins throughout our coinage history. Prof Arndt in his book Mints and Coinage, interpreting the 1922 act, mentions Transvaal coins (1892 - 1902)? to be legal tender still. Coinoisseur, in a different thread, seems to be of the same opinion.You will correct me if I am wrong, but the ZAR coinage size, weight and denominations were to be based on the British circulation coinage in order to make it acceptable in all colonies. This makes it easier to understand the rationale behind this act. There are obvious gaps in the timeline on this thread, but it will be interesting to find the definitive answer. -
1874 Burgers Half crown pattern
jwither replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
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1874 Burgers Half crown pattern
jwither replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
Technically, all patterns are struck in the same metal in which the coin was subsequently issued. However, most collectors lump all test coinage into a single category they call "patterns". Per an explanation I provided years ago here, in US collecting: Patterns are test coins using the same metal and mostly the same design elements as the subsequent circulating coinage. Examples include Judd-208 and Judd-228, an 1858 Indian Head cent with the laurel wreath reverse issued in 1859 and the 1859 IHC with the oak wreath reverse issued from 1860-1909. Experimental pieces have the same design but a different metal composition. I believe many or most of the Union "patterns" fit this description. Trial pieces have a different design, with or without the usual metal composition. All of the pre-Union patterns fit this description. With many "patterns", it's evident it was a proto type for any future circulating coinage. Take a look at the ZAR Kruger gold. It's obvious that the ZAR would not have struck a half crown in gold for circulation. It is also "common knowledge" that many US "patterns" were illegally struck by US Mint employees for private sale and personal enrichment. That's why over 2000 different coins exist. Every single one of these coins are expensive with US collectors holding hugely inflated opinions of the merits. -
How can it be? The currency system is obsolete.
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Counterfeit/plated coins
GROOVIE MOVIES replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
If I may answer. I've been readiing up on patterns and see that 100 Transvaal pattern pennies were struck in 1890. Kruger had every intention to strike coinage and established a ZAR national bank in1890 with the assistance of European investors. Legislation on ZAR coinage was submitted to the Volksraad and approved 20 August 1890. So plans were underway to strike coinage well before 1892. regards Robert -
1874 Burgers Half crown pattern
GROOVIE MOVIES replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
After doing some further reading I see patterns were struck in silver as well in the 19th century, so it was not uncommon for patterns to be struck from precious metals as I thought. -
Counterfeit/plated coins
Pierre_Henri replied to GROOVIE MOVIES's topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
What Transvaal coins existed in 1890 besides the Burgers Pond? -
1874 Burgers Half crown pattern
GROOVIE MOVIES posted a topic in Coins and Notes (for the Numismatist)
Good day I was looking with fascination at a 1874 Burgers half crown pattern listed on BOB for a whopping 110K. The listing states only 5 aluminium patterns were struck in what I assume to be 1874. I will try to read up more about these patterns at a later stage... What I find intriguing was that they were struck in aluminium, common in modern times, but very scarce in the 1870's. So I did some reading on wikipedia under the topics Aluminium, and The History of Aluminium to try and put an estimated worth to the patterns at the time they were struck. The snippet that I took from Wiki topic Aluminium are as follows and I quote: " In 1856, Deville along with companions established the world's first industrial production of aluminium.[62] From 1855 to 1859, the price of aluminium dropped by an order of magnitude, from US$500 to $40 per kilogram." And from wiki topic History of Aluminium: "The price of aluminium fell to US$115 per pound in 1855 and to $17 in 1859.[47] At the next fair in Paris in 1867, the visitors were presented with aluminium wire and foil." From the articles it is specified that mass production only took hold in the 1880's with new processes which led to the metal becoming cheaper and "widely used in jewelry, everyday items, eyeglass frames, optical instruments, tableware" So using the estimated price of the metal in 1859 (about $40/kg or $17/lb) one can take an educated guess and deduce that 14grams (the weight of a sterling silver ZAR half crown) would cost about about 50 cents US. A silver half dollar weighed 12.5 grams of .90 silver so it is safe to assume that 14grams of Aluminium cost close to the same weight in silver, 50 cents. My point to this exercise is that aluminium in 1870's was a costly metal to strike patterns with. One could equate those 5 patterns to being struck in silver, which I have not heard of before. Some food for thought. regards Robert